Discussion:
TO ILINDEN THE DELUDED FYROMIAN
(too old to reply)
Todor
2003-10-28 09:48:26 UTC
Permalink
Outgoing No 86/08 Sept. 1997
Attention: Mr. Kiro Gligorov
President of the Republic of Macedonia
Skopje
O P E N L E T T E R
from the Macedonian Scientific Institute, Sofia
(re: Your interview of 23 July 1997)
Mr. President,

Not long ago, the Macedonian Bulgarians living in the USA, Canada and
Australia, as well as those in Germany, addressed You with an Open
Letter on the occasion of Your interview of 23 July 1997. In our
capacity of Macedonian Bulgarians and members of the Macedonian
Scientific Institute - academicians, corresponding members,
professors, assistant professors, research associates, and public
figures, we would also like to express our attitude to the problems
treated by You in the interview.

We are pleased with the fact that You recognized a number of facts
considering the Republic of Macedonia and the relations between our
two countries, namely:

1. This was the first time You have declared before the world that the
process of "de-Bulgarization" in the Republic of Macedonia has been
completed "with the exception of some persons and one or two parties".
That statement of Yours confirms the historic truth that, until 1944,
the Slavonic population of the Republic of Macedonia has been a
Bulgarian one. Furthermore, in this way You supported the statement
made by President Petar Stoyanov in Strasbourg - that "Macedonian
history is a part of Bulgarian history, and one of its most romantic
parts - the struggle of the Christian population against the
enslavers".

2. You pointed out that the pro-Bulgarian attitudes in the Republic of
Macedonia were a "standing problem" for You. This, Mr. President, is
true only regarding the period since 1944. It is well known that the
population of Macedonia has always legitimized itself as being
Bulgarian, which is testified by the Ottoman archives, the diplomatic
correspondence of the foreign consuls, foreign observers, travellers,
eminent scientists, military people, and others who had worked in the
historical-geographic region on Macedonia, as well as by the written
documents left by the most prominent figures of the National Revival
period - Father Paissiy, Neophyte Rilski, Grigor Parlichev, the
Miladinov brothers, Jordan Hadjikonstantinov (Djinot), Kouzman
Shapkarev, Rayko Zhinzifof, etc.; the national revolutionaries Damyan
Grouev, Gotse Delchev, Pere Toshev, Todor Alexandrov, Ivan Mihaylov;
the builders of our state - M. Andonov (Chento), P. Shatev, V.
Markovski, etc.

3. You finally found the courage to confirm a statement we have made a
number of times, namely that "the recognition of a state, and not of a
language or a nation, is a matter of international law". This is
exactly the truth, Mr. President, for the state is a political, i. e.
legal category, which is subject to recognition or non-recognition,
while the language and the nation are scientific categories which are
not subject to recognition. The policy of the Serbo-Communists in the
Republic of Macedonia towards legitimizing the Comintern decision of
1934 for creation a "Macedonian nation" and a "Macedonian language"
have led to the present situation, i. e. search for a political
decision of the problem. The recent statement of the Greek President,
Mr. Kostas Stefanopoulos, cited by the "New Macedonia" newspaper, that
"the Macedonians are Bulgarians and their language is a fabrication"
confirm indisputably in another way the historical truth.

4. You are right, Mr. President, in stating that the language dispute
is "a domestic problem of your own". The Macedonian Serbo-Communists
have "conjured up" that language which, according to the "Focus"
newspaper, is spoken by less than a half of the people of the Republic
of Macedonia. Therefore, we dare ask you: since this is a domestic
problem of yours, why is Your government constantly intruding it onto
us and using it to block the normal relations between our states?

However, along with the confessions made, You went on by trying to
support and legalize a number of non-truths:

First. You allowed Yourself to identify the Republic of Macedonia with
the whole historical-geographical region of Macedonia, as well as to
appear as a spokesman for its entire population. Yet you neglected the
fact, Mr. President, that the region in question belongs to three
independent states - the republics of Macedonia, Greece and Bulgaria.
Your behaviour gives us the reason to assume that You are expressing
explicit territorial claims which is an anachronism for the present
day.

You declared Yourself a spokesman for the population of the three
areas of Macedonia. We have the right to ask you: who authorized You
to do so? The events in "Mechkin Kamen" on the occasion of the Ilinden
Uprising allows us to doubt Your chances of being a spokesman even for
the opinion of the Republic of Macedonia.

Second. In Your interview, You once again made an attempt at proving
the existence of a "Macedonian minority" in the republics of Greece,
Albania and Bulgaria. You certainly are aware of the fact that there
is no such minority not only in Bulgaria, but also in the rest of the
countries. It is well known that the attempts made on the part of the
Bulgarian Communist Party, under the strong pressure exerted by the
Comuntern and Tito's Yugoslavia, to Macedonize the Bulgarian
population in the Pirin region in 1946-47 were a complete failure.
Nowadays, the successors of that Party - Bulgarian socialists - came
out with a declaration which confessed and condemned the attempts at a
de-Bulgarization made by their predecessors, since these were strongly
urged from foreign powers and against the will of the people from the
region. Not long ago, the former Albanian President, Mr. Sali Berisha
declared that about 150-200 thousand Bulgarians are living in his
country. The International Kelsinki Committee, as well as the American
newspaper "New York Times" of 1996 stated that about 150 000 Bulgarian
live in Greece. Probably You consider a minority the small group of
people who (with the financial support of the Yugoslav embassy in
Sofia and the "Koukoush-1913" joint company) established the
illegitimate organization OMO "Ilinden". Their activities confine to
their appearances on Skopje Television and in the anti-Bulgarian
loudspeaker - the newspaper "Nova Macedonia". Their slapstick actions
are a subject of ridicule and regret in Bulgaria.

Third. In Your interview, You attributed a sign of equivalence between
nationality and political regime in the Republic of Macedonia. Mr.
Gligorov, political regimes are something transitory. They come and
go, yet nationality remains. The regime of Serbo-Communism in the
Socialist Republic of Macedonia has left painful memories in the
consciousness of the population of the Republic of Macedonia. During a
period of about 50 years, about 720 trials were held, resulting in
over 200 death sentences; more than 20 000 citizens were killed
without any trial or sentence; over 150 000 were sent to prisons and
prison camps in Idrizovo, Goli Otok, etc.; another 180 000 were forced
to leave the country seeking refuge in Bulgaria and in other countries
all over the world - only because they wanted to remain Bulgarians.
That population, subjected to genocide by Your ideological adherents
and political regimes, has nothing in common with the ruling top.

Fourth. You often take unfair advantage of the "Bulgarian occupation
in Macedonia". For more than a half century you have identified the
Bulgarians with fascists. Both in the past and at present, Bulgarians,
like people all over the world, have had differing political
convictions and views.The fact that the Bulgarian people availed
themselves of the war-time situation to regain the territories torn
from it by force of the Bucharest (1913) and Neuilly (1919) treaties,
does not give You the right to use a forged terminology. Let us remind
you that before the invasion of Bulgarian troops in Vardar Macedonia,
the area already hosted Bulgarian action committees organized by the
local population, which is a historical demonstration of a national
self-identification and establishment of a local Bulgarian power.
During that period, Mr. President, the whole population greeted with
flowers, flags and church gonfalons "the occupiers", as You termed
them. Let us remind You that 70 % of the officers and 50 % of the
soldiers were born in Macedonia. They were coming back to their native
places and their relatives. That is why the population greeted them as
liberators. This is testified by the archive documentaries which are
being kept in our archives.

We would also like to remind you that, during the Bulgarian
administration of Vardar Macedonia, dozens of schools, hospitals,roads
and bridges were built; the construction of several railroads to Sofia
started; all settlements were provided with town-settlement plans,
etc. In other words, for less than 4 years Bulgaria did more than what
was done during the 26-year-long Serb occupation. Yet, never and
nowhere have You spoken out a single word against it. Our archives
keep numerous documents about the active involvement of the young
people of Vardar Macedonia in the social-political and cultural life.

Fifth. In the same interview, You rejoiced that it is the great
advantage of the Republic of Macedonia and the "Macedonian language"
that they avail of their own alphabet. Why are You unable, Mr.
President, to tell the truth that this is not a Macedonian but a
Serbian alphabet. Why did not You tell that it was made up by order of
Tito, Djilas, Tempo and Kolishevski by special orthographic
commissions (27 November - 3 December 1944)? Those commissions
rejected the Bulgarian alphabet which had been used till 1913 by the
Bulgarians throughout Macedonia, in 1373 schools and 13 high schools,
by 2266 teachers and over 100 000 students. that was the alphabet used
by all figures of the National Revival period, led by Dame Grouev,
Gotse Delchev, Todor Alexandrov, etc. The Serbian alphabet which was
introduced by the Serbs in 1913 and legitimized in 1944 infringed on
the eleven-century-long all-Bulgarian cultural tradition started by
Cyril and Methodius and their disciples Kliment and Naoum.

Mr. President, once upon a time, our great poet Ivan Vazov, who is of
Macedonian origin, used to say - "You cannot quench the unquenchable".
You and your follower would not be able, in spite of every efforts
made, to quench the Bulgarian spirit of the population of Macedonia.
You are afraid that the notion of "One people in two states" might
assert itself. You are right to do so because that is an idea which
enjoys ever greater popularity among the people from both sides of the
Rouen and Belasitsa mountains. That idea has also been a part of the
programme of the national liberation movement of the Bulgarians in
Macedonia for decades now. This is a righteous idea which has its
future.

At present, the attitude of the Republic of Bulgaria towards the
Republic of Macedonia is more than well-wishing one. Namely because of
this Bulgaria:

1. Was the first country in the world to recognize Your state.
2. Helped you save your economy from a crash (without any signed
agreements) and during the double economic embargo.
3. Did not consent to a division of the territory of the Republic of
Macedonia.
4. Interceded with Russia and other countries for the recognition of
Your state, and they listened to the voice of Sofia.

All this testifies to the fact that the Bulgarian state is not an
enemy of the Republic of Macedonia, and that its people are a real
brother to its people. You should not also forget that the Republic of
Bulgaria is the home for over 3 million of Macedonian Bulgarians and
their descendants who have been driven away by the Turkish, Serbian
and Macedonian authorities, i. e. over than three times more than the
Slavonic population of Macedonia. Therefore, we are not indifferent to
the fate of the Republic of Macedonia.

Mr. Gligorov, in our capacity of Bulgarians from Macedonia and as
scholars, we are well aware of the complex political heritage left by
the Serbo-Communists to the Republic of Macedonia. Yet, the brothers
from both sides of the Rouen and Belasitsa mountains, would like to
live at peace and with wide open borders, instead of in an atmosphere
of mistrust and hostility, imposed by the present government of Yours
and servicing interests alien to both the Republic of Macedonia and
the Republic of Bulgaria.

September 1997
Macedonian Scientific Institute
Sofia
Historian178
2003-10-29 06:40:26 UTC
Permalink
Todor,

The pathetic Macedonist (Makedonoman) Ilinden is a hopeless case.

I value highly your contributions, but only a miracle - I think - can help
Ilinden and his ilk sober up and face the truth, i.e., the fact that they are
ethnic Bulgarians, a fact that their ancestors had no problem recognizing
/admitting and living with for centuries.

Regards to you and all other Truth lovers.


Christopher (Riste) Lerinski - an American descendant of Bulgarians from Aegean
Macedonia
Ilinden
2003-10-29 14:56:34 UTC
Permalink
The Macedonians are Macedonians, the Bulgars are Bulgars and the Greki are Greki ,
please we are at the 21 century no more propaganda from the Greki or Bulgars.
Da zhivee Makedonija I Makedonskiot narod.
Ilinden the Macedonian
'
Post by Historian178
Todor,
The pathetic Macedonist (Makedonoman) Ilinden is a hopeless case.
I value highly your contributions, but only a miracle - I think - can help
Ilinden and his ilk sober up and face the truth, i.e., the fact that they are
ethnic Bulgarians, a fact that their ancestors had no problem recognizing
/admitting and living with for centuries.
Regards to you and all other Truth lovers.
Christopher (Riste) Lerinski - an American descendant of Bulgarians from Aegean
Macedonia
Pyrgi
2003-10-30 01:17:33 UTC
Permalink
AND I SAY FUCK YOU
Zhivko Apostolovski
2003-10-30 02:08:13 UTC
Permalink
To Riste, Todor and all other Macedonian bugaromani,

Below is a letter (reply) addressed to me, from the Turkish coordinator of
"Project Turk", a 37 volume history of the Turks, completed in 2002.

From his letter you should be able conclude (as Dr Karatay makes it as clear
as a bright sunny day) that the REAL Bulgars are brethren with the Turks, as
they are a TURKO-MONGOL race.

This has been said numerous times, but it's worth pointing out again, for
the benefit of the likes of the Macedonian odrodeni like Riste. The absurd
fact about the ethnic identity of the people living in Bulgaria today is
that almost all who identify as Bulgari (Bulgars) today are not of Bulgar
origins. At best(?), some of them may have some Bulgar blood in them. They
speak a non Bulgar(ian) (macedonic) languge, have non Bulgarian culture and
literacy, practice non Bulgarian rituals/customs, yet they ferociously claim
the Bulgarian ethnos as their own, abandoning in the process their true
ethnic identities (Macedonian, Trakian, Vlach, Serbian, etc). And those with
true ethnic Bulgarian origins are classified as ethnic minorities (like the
Gagauz in the north-east of Bulgaria and Muslims/Turks, predominantly in the
south-eastern parts of Bulgaria).

It is highly unlikely that Riste, especially, having origins in Lerin(sko),
is or ethnic Bulgar origins, despite his, sadly, vociferous claims to the
contrary. Riste and others like him should also keep in mind that just as
many, if not more of his ethnic brethren (Macedonians), claim with equal
ferocity that they are Greeks, a product of the other anti-Macedonian
propaganda.

And finally i recommend to Riste and the others like him to make an attempt
to read the books "The Ethogenetic Differences Between the Macedonians and
the Bulgarians" by Aleksandar Donski. If for nothing else it will give them
a bibliography of writings (most of which are by writers from within
Bulgaria), that I am certain, most bugaromani are not aware of. The other
book, "Who Falsifies the History", by Gjorgje Radule (Georgi Radulov) is
published both in Macedonian and in Bulgarian. Amongst many other topics
there is a significant portion on "the 15 lies of the bulgarism" in the
bulgarian historiography.

Zhivko Apostolovski

Follows, the letter from Dr Karatay:

----- Original Message -----
From: KaraM Kitapligi
To: ***@mail2me.com.au
Sent: Saturday, March 15, 2003 8:15 PM
Subject: re: O. Karatay


Dear Gospodin,

Sorry for replying from this account. I received your mail concerning the
Project Turk. Its story is universally very simple, but Bulgarically
ununderstandable. The Project aimed at preparing a gigantic publication
consisting everything about Turks. Naturally we included also proto-Bulgars.
In all books about Turks, in all languages including Bulgarian,
proto-Bulgars are classified among Turkic tribes. But, some Bulgarian
academicians reacted to our classification, as a revolutionary act. If
Bulgarians, Russians, Germans etc. accept them a Turkic group, OK, if Turks
do the same, it is not scientific, but nationalistic... That is all. I left
the project before finishing all, but it was published in total 37 volumes
with 35,000 pages. 6 of them are in English. You may find info at
www.yeniturkiye.com or www.projectturk.com. But there is nothing new about
Proto-Bulgars, except my article connecting founders of the Croatian and
Serbian medieval states to Proto-Bulgars.

With best wishes,

Osman Karatay
Post by Historian178
Todor,
The pathetic Macedonist (Makedonoman) Ilinden is a hopeless case.
I value highly your contributions, but only a miracle - I think - can help
Ilinden and his ilk sober up and face the truth, i.e., the fact that they are
ethnic Bulgarians, a fact that their ancestors had no problem recognizing
/admitting and living with for centuries.
Regards to you and all other Truth lovers.
Christopher (Riste) Lerinski - an American descendant of Bulgarians from Aegean
Macedonia
Historian178
2003-10-30 02:59:43 UTC
Permalink
Ilindencho,

You really can never stop amusing me with the cheap and groundless propaganda
you keep repeating/ disseminating.

I am well aware of the glouposti tikvarinot i rasistot Donski ot Shtip (who
was born after I penned my first article on the Macedonian Question) writes
about the Bulgarians of Macedonia, Paeonia, and Dardania. The same applies to
the other materials you are quoting; I am not impressed at all.

So far, I have not found a scintilla of evidence (in the course of over 40
years) to suggest that there is a modern Balkan tribe deserving the appellation
"ethnic Macedonians." YOUR "ETHNIC MACEDONIANS" have nothing in common with
the polymorphous population of Alexander's ancient Macedonia. There are all
sorts of contemporary Macedonians - Greeks, Albanians, Bulgarians, Vlachs, Roma
(including Gyuptsi), Torbeshi & Pomaks (Muslim Bulgarians), a few Serbs, very
few Armenians, even fewer Jews& Dyonme, very few Turks, and a handful of
representatives of just about all major ethnic groups on Earth. In other words,
all sorts of people inhabit Macedonia, Paeonia, and Dardania, but "ETHNIC
MACEDONIANS." The latter are the figment of the imagination of one particular
group of Greater Serbian chauvinists led by Stojan Novakovic (Stoyan
Novakovich), the principal progenitor of the pseudoscholarly and virulently
racist doctrine of Macedonism during the 1880's. His diligent disciples and
fervent promoters of Macedonism were the leaders of the Soviet-dominated
Comintern (after 1934), Tito's Yugoslavia communist elite, as well as the
Bulgarian communists (a bunch of national nihilists!) during the 1940's and to
a lesser extent throughout the 1950's.

But enough is enough. At any rate, I have the feeling I am preaching to a wall.

Opomni se bre, boudala-makedonoman i se razkay!

Bay ti Riste=Christopher Lerinski - an American descendant of Bulgarians from
Aegean Macedonia
Zhivko Apostolovski
2003-10-30 14:46:12 UTC
Permalink
Confront a Macedonian odrod, (be it a bugaroman or a grkoman) with some
factual historical truth about his artificially created ethnicity
(nationality) and he will, without failing, not having an avenue for
defending his (invented) ethnicity, revert to the usual "bag of tricks" in
the form of hurling insults at those who confront him with some truths, and
accusations at others (in this case the Serbs) for exactly the same
activities the artificial Bulgars were doing in Macedonia (assimilating the
Macedonians).
Post by Historian178
Ilindencho,
It's evident you are suffering from severe blindness.
Post by Historian178
You really can never stop amusing me with the cheap and groundless propaganda
you keep repeating/ disseminating.
Such as? Be specific, bugaroman. Are you suggesting that the letter from Dr
Karatay is "groundless propaganda"?
Post by Historian178
I am well aware of the glouposti tikvarinot i rasistot Donski ot Shtip (who
was born after I penned my first article on the Macedonian Question) writes
about the Bulgarians of Macedonia, Paeonia, and Dardania. The same applies to
the other materials you are quoting; I am not impressed at all.
Cut your crap (insults) and start proving your accusations, bugaroman. But I
suggest to you to read the books first.
Post by Historian178
So far, I have not found a scintilla of evidence (in the course of over 40
years) to suggest that there is a modern Balkan tribe deserving the appellation
"ethnic Macedonians."
It only proves that you are a blind, incompetent bugaroman.

YOUR "ETHNIC MACEDONIANS" have nothing in common with
Post by Historian178
the polymorphous population of Alexander's ancient Macedonia. There are all
sorts of contemporary Macedonians - Greeks, Albanians, Bulgarians, Vlachs, Roma
(including Gyuptsi), Torbeshi & Pomaks (Muslim Bulgarians), a few Serbs, very
few Armenians, even fewer Jews& Dyonme, very few Turks, and a handful of
representatives of just about all major ethnic groups on Earth. In other words,
all sorts of people inhabit Macedonia, Paeonia, and Dardania, but "ETHNIC
MACEDONIANS." The latter are the figment of the imagination of one particular
group of Greater Serbian chauvinists led by Stojan Novakovic (Stoyan
Novakovich), the principal progenitor of the pseudoscholarly and virulently
racist doctrine of Macedonism during the 1880's. His diligent disciples and
fervent promoters of Macedonism were the leaders of the Soviet-dominated
Comintern (after 1934), Tito's Yugoslavia communist elite, as well as the
Bulgarian communists (a bunch of national nihilists!) during the 1940's and to
a lesser extent throughout the 1950's.
There is absolutely no need for you to put yourself to all this trouble with
the ad nauseum repeated "bulgar" (read vulgar)propaganda. We all know it, by
now. Just explain by what criteria are the white skinned, european faced,
some blond, "Bulgari" and Macedonians (most of the population in those
countries) can be identified as the REAL turko-tatar Bulgars. Is it by blood
(race)? Is it by language? Is it by culture"? Is it by literacy? Is it by
religion? Daunting and haunting for you, bugaroman, isn't?

I don't see anything in your letter that specifically denies anything that I
wrote about your false (artificially acquired) Bulgar(ian) ethnos. But then
it's hard to argue against the truth (facts), without being silly.

I have been to Lerinsko many a times in the past 10+ years and I haven't
come across one "Bulgar" there. Most of the Macedonian "Bulgars" in America
are from the exarch era. They are becoming an extinct creature, there.
Post by Historian178
But enough is enough. At any rate, I have the feeling I am preaching to a wall.
You certainly have taken the words out of my mouth here, bugaroman.
Post by Historian178
Opomni se bre, boudala-makedonoman i se razkay!
Bay ti Riste=Christopher Lerinski - an American descendant of Bulgarians from
Aegean Macedonia
Asteras
2003-10-30 18:38:01 UTC
Permalink
"We are Slavs who came to this area in the sixth century ... we are
not descendants of the ancient Macedonians."
Quote from FYROM'S President Mr. Kiro Gligorov.
(from the Foreign Information Service Daily Report, Eastern Europe,
February 26, 1992, p. 35. )

"We are Macedonians but we are Slav Macedonians. That's who we are! We
have no connection to Alexander the Greek and his Macedonia. The
ancient Macedonians no longer exist, they had disappeared from history
long time ago. Our ancestors came here in the 5th and 6th century
(AD)."
Quote from FYROM'S President Mr. Kiro Gligorov.
(from the Toronto Star newspaper, March 15, 1992)

22 January 1999: FYROM'S Ambassador in Washington, Mrs. Ljubica
Acevshka, gave a speech on the present situation in the Balkans. At
the end of her speech answering questions Mrs. Acevshka said:
"We do not claim to be descendants of Alexander the Great." "Greece is
FYROM'S second largest trading partner, and its number one investor.
Instead of opting for war, we have chosen the mediation of the United
Nations, with talks on the ambassadorial level under Mr. Vance and Mr.
Nimitz." In reply to another question about the ethnic origin of the
people of FYROM, Ambassador Achevska stated that "we are Slavs and we
speak a Slav language."

24 February 1999: In an interview with the Ottawa Citizen, Gyordan
Veselinov, FYROM'S Ambassador to Canada, admitted, "We are not related
to the northern Greeks who produced leaders like Philip and Alexander
the Great. We are a Slav people and our language is closely related to
Bulgarian." He also commented "there is some confusion about the
identity of the people of this country."

On Fri, 31 Oct 2003 01:46:12 +1100, "Zhivko Apostolovski"
Post by Zhivko Apostolovski
Confront a Macedonian odrod, (be it a bugaroman or a grkoman) with some
factual historical truth about his artificially created ethnicity
(nationality) and he will, without failing, not having an avenue for
defending his (invented) ethnicity, revert to the usual "bag of tricks" in
the form of hurling insults at those who confront him with some truths, and
accusations at others (in this case the Serbs) for exactly the same
activities the artificial Bulgars were doing in Macedonia (assimilating the
Macedonians).
Post by Historian178
Ilindencho,
It's evident you are suffering from severe blindness.
Post by Historian178
You really can never stop amusing me with the cheap and groundless
propaganda
Post by Historian178
you keep repeating/ disseminating.
Such as? Be specific, bugaroman. Are you suggesting that the letter from Dr
Karatay is "groundless propaganda"?
Post by Historian178
I am well aware of the glouposti tikvarinot i rasistot Donski ot Shtip
(who
Post by Historian178
was born after I penned my first article on the Macedonian Question)
writes
Post by Historian178
about the Bulgarians of Macedonia, Paeonia, and Dardania. The same applies
to
Post by Historian178
the other materials you are quoting; I am not impressed at all.
Cut your crap (insults) and start proving your accusations, bugaroman. But I
suggest to you to read the books first.
Post by Historian178
So far, I have not found a scintilla of evidence (in the course of over 40
years) to suggest that there is a modern Balkan tribe deserving the
appellation
Post by Historian178
"ethnic Macedonians."
It only proves that you are a blind, incompetent bugaroman.
YOUR "ETHNIC MACEDONIANS" have nothing in common with
Post by Historian178
the polymorphous population of Alexander's ancient Macedonia. There are
all
Post by Historian178
sorts of contemporary Macedonians - Greeks, Albanians, Bulgarians, Vlachs,
Roma
Post by Historian178
(including Gyuptsi), Torbeshi & Pomaks (Muslim Bulgarians), a few Serbs,
very
Post by Historian178
few Armenians, even fewer Jews& Dyonme, very few Turks, and a handful of
representatives of just about all major ethnic groups on Earth. In other
words,
Post by Historian178
all sorts of people inhabit Macedonia, Paeonia, and Dardania, but "ETHNIC
MACEDONIANS." The latter are the figment of the imagination of one
particular
Post by Historian178
group of Greater Serbian chauvinists led by Stojan Novakovic (Stoyan
Novakovich), the principal progenitor of the pseudoscholarly and
virulently
Post by Historian178
racist doctrine of Macedonism during the 1880's. His diligent disciples
and
Post by Historian178
fervent promoters of Macedonism were the leaders of the Soviet-dominated
Comintern (after 1934), Tito's Yugoslavia communist elite, as well as the
Bulgarian communists (a bunch of national nihilists!) during the 1940's
and to
Post by Historian178
a lesser extent throughout the 1950's.
There is absolutely no need for you to put yourself to all this trouble with
the ad nauseum repeated "bulgar" (read vulgar)propaganda. We all know it, by
now. Just explain by what criteria are the white skinned, european faced,
some blond, "Bulgari" and Macedonians (most of the population in those
countries) can be identified as the REAL turko-tatar Bulgars. Is it by blood
(race)? Is it by language? Is it by culture"? Is it by literacy? Is it by
religion? Daunting and haunting for you, bugaroman, isn't?
I don't see anything in your letter that specifically denies anything that I
wrote about your false (artificially acquired) Bulgar(ian) ethnos. But then
it's hard to argue against the truth (facts), without being silly.
I have been to Lerinsko many a times in the past 10+ years and I haven't
come across one "Bulgar" there. Most of the Macedonian "Bulgars" in America
are from the exarch era. They are becoming an extinct creature, there.
Post by Historian178
But enough is enough. At any rate, I have the feeling I am preaching to a
wall.
You certainly have taken the words out of my mouth here, bugaroman.
Post by Historian178
Opomni se bre, boudala-makedonoman i se razkay!
Bay ti Riste=Christopher Lerinski - an American descendant of Bulgarians
from
Post by Historian178
Aegean Macedonia
June R Harton
2003-11-01 05:26:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Zhivko Apostolovski
Confront a Macedonian odrod, (be it a bugaroman or a grkoman) with some
factual historical truth about his artificially created ethnicity
(nationality) and he will, without failing, not having an avenue for
defending his (invented) ethnicity, revert to the usual "bag of tricks" in
the form of hurling insults at those who confront him with some truths, and
accusations at others (in this case the Serbs) for exactly the same
activities the artificial Bulgars were doing in Macedonia (assimilating the
Macedonians).
Why don't you stop being silly. You are your people have been Bulgarians
from the beginning and you shall never be anything else.

Folks, you only have to look here to see that the Fyrom Slavic majority,
like that Bulgar poster ilindra, Nicholov and Slavko are simply West
Bulgarians and have no connection to 'Macedonia' anything:

In a letter to Prof. Marin Drinov of May 25, 1888 Kuzman Shapkarev writes:
"But even stranger is the name Macedonians, which was imposed on us only 10
to 15 years ago by outsiders, and not as something by our own
intellectuals... Yet the people in Macedonia know nothing of that ancient
name, reintroduced today with a cunning aim on the one hand and a stupid one
on the other. They know the older word: "Bugari", although mispronounced:
they have even adopted it as peculiarly theirs, inapplicable to other
Bulgarians. You can find more about this in the introduction to the booklets
I am sending you. They call their own Macedono-Bulgarian dialect the
"Bugarski language", while the rest of the Bulgarian dialects they refer to
as the "Shopski language". (Makedonski pregled, IX, 2, 1934, p. 55; the
original letter is kept in the Marin Drinov Museum in Sofia, and it is
available for examination and study)
Here is the text in the original:

"No pochudno e imeto Makedonci, koeto naskoro, edvay predi 10-15 godini, ni
natrapiha i to otvqn, a ne kakto nyakoi mislyat ot samata nasha
inteligenciya... Narodqt obache v Makedoniya ne znae nishto za tova
arhaichesko, a dnes, s lukava cel ot edna strana, s glupeshka ot druga,
podnoveno prozvishte; toy si znae postaroto: Bugari, makar i nepravilno
proiznasyano, daje osvoyava si go kato sobstveno i preimushtestveno svoe,
nejeli za drugite Bqlgari. Za tova shte vidite i v predgovora na izpratenite
mi knijici. Toy naricha Bugarski ezik svoeto Makaedono-bqlgarsko narechie,
kogato drugite bqlgarski narechiya naricha Shopski."


And here:


Reference source for Gotse Delchev's numerous utterings of 'We are
Bulgarians'......

http://www.ucc.ie/staff/jprodr/macedonia/macmodnat2.html

Even Gotse Delchev, the famous Macedonian revolutionary leader, whose nom de
guerre was Ahil (Achilles), refers to "the Slavs of Macedonia as
'Bulgarians' in an offhanded manner without seeming to indicate that such a
designation was a point of contention" (Perry 1988:23).
In his correspondence Gotse Delchev often states clearly and simply, "We are
Bulgarians" (MacDermott 1978:192,273).


And here:


For fair use only.

http://members.tripod.com/~dimobetchev/documents/ilinden.htm

" Considering the critical and terrible situation that the Bulgarian
population of the Bitola Vilayet found itself in and following the ravages
and cruelties done by the Turkish troops and irregulars, ... considering
the fact that everything Bulgarian runs the risk of perishing and
disappearing without a trace because of violence, hunger, and the upcoming
misery, the Head Quarters finds it to be its obligation to draw the
attention of the respected Bulgarian government to the pernicious
consequences vis-a-vis the Bulgarian nation, in case the latter does not
fulfill its duty towards its brethren of race here in an imposing fashion
which is necessary by virtue of the present ordeal for the common Bulgarian
Fatherland...

...Being in command of our people's movement, we appeal to you on behalf of
the enslaved Bulgarian to help him in the most effective way - by waging
war.We believe that the response of the people in free Bulgaria will be the
same.

... No bulgarian school is opened, neither will it be opened... Nobody
thinks of education when he is outlawed by the state because he bears the
name Bulgar...


Waiting for your patriotic intervention, we are pleased to inform you that
we have in our disposition the armed forces we have spared by now.

The Head Quarters of the Ilinden Uprising"

Damian GRUEV, Boris SARAFOV, Atanas LOZANTCHEV

This memorandum was handed to Dr.Kozhuharov, the Bulgarian consul in Bitola,

and transmitted by him to the government in Sofia with report N441 from
September 17th, 1903. "

And here:


http://www.bulgaria.com/VMRO/document.htm

http://www.bulgaria.com/VMRO/documen1.htm

http://www.bulgaria.com/VMRO/documen2.htm

http://www.bulgaria.com/VMRO/documen3.htm

http://www.bulgaria.com/VMRO/drzhava.htm

http://www.bulgaria.com/VMRO/exarchy.htm

http://w3.tyenet.com/kozlich/mapovska4a.htm

And finally here

http://www.bulgaria.com/VMRO/bitola06.htm

http://www.historymuseum.org/items.php3?nid=199&name=ochrid





from: Spirit of Truth

(using June's e-mail to communicate to you)!
Ilinden
2003-10-30 16:44:57 UTC
Permalink
Tatarche, you are flummoxed again, koga ke ti dojdi umot bre mrsen Tatar.
Makedonija na Makedontsite, Tataria na Tatarite.
Ilinden the Macedonian
Post by Historian178
Ilindencho,
You really can never stop amusing me with the cheap and groundless propaganda
you keep repeating/ disseminating.
I am well aware of the glouposti tikvarinot i rasistot Donski ot Shtip (who
was born after I penned my first article on the Macedonian Question) writes
about the Bulgarians of Macedonia, Paeonia, and Dardania. The same applies to
the other materials you are quoting; I am not impressed at all.
So far, I have not found a scintilla of evidence (in the course of over 40
years) to suggest that there is a modern Balkan tribe deserving the appellation
"ethnic Macedonians." YOUR "ETHNIC MACEDONIANS" have nothing in common with
the polymorphous population of Alexander's ancient Macedonia. There are all
sorts of contemporary Macedonians - Greeks, Albanians, Bulgarians, Vlachs, Roma
(including Gyuptsi), Torbeshi & Pomaks (Muslim Bulgarians), a few Serbs, very
few Armenians, even fewer Jews& Dyonme, very few Turks, and a handful of
representatives of just about all major ethnic groups on Earth. In other words,
all sorts of people inhabit Macedonia, Paeonia, and Dardania, but "ETHNIC
MACEDONIANS." The latter are the figment of the imagination of one particular
group of Greater Serbian chauvinists led by Stojan Novakovic (Stoyan
Novakovich), the principal progenitor of the pseudoscholarly and virulently
racist doctrine of Macedonism during the 1880's. His diligent disciples and
fervent promoters of Macedonism were the leaders of the Soviet-dominated
Comintern (after 1934), Tito's Yugoslavia communist elite, as well as the
Bulgarian communists (a bunch of national nihilists!) during the 1940's and to
a lesser extent throughout the 1950's.
But enough is enough. At any rate, I have the feeling I am preaching to a wall.
Opomni se bre, boudala-makedonoman i se razkay!
Bay ti Riste=Christopher Lerinski - an American descendant of Bulgarians from
Aegean Macedonia
Nashton
2003-10-30 04:08:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Zhivko Apostolovski
To Riste, Todor and all other Macedonian bugaromani,
Below is a letter (reply) addressed to me, from the Turkish coordinator of
"Project Turk", a 37 volume history of the Turks, completed in 2002.
From his letter you should be able conclude (as Dr Karatay makes it as clear
as a bright sunny day) that the REAL Bulgars are brethren with the Turks, as
they are a TURKO-MONGOL race.
This has been said numerous times, but it's worth pointing out again, for
the benefit of the likes of the Macedonian odrodeni like Riste. The absurd
fact about the ethnic identity of the people living in Bulgaria today is
that almost all who identify as Bulgari (Bulgars) today are not of Bulgar
origins. At best(?), some of them may have some Bulgar blood in them. They
speak a non Bulgar(ian) (macedonic) languge, have non Bulgarian culture and
literacy, practice non Bulgarian rituals/customs, yet they ferociously claim
the Bulgarian ethnos as their own, abandoning in the process their true
ethnic identities (Macedonian, Trakian, Vlach, Serbian, etc). And those with
true ethnic Bulgarian origins are classified as ethnic minorities (like the
Gagauz in the north-east of Bulgaria and Muslims/Turks, predominantly in the
south-eastern parts of Bulgaria).
It is highly unlikely that Riste, especially, having origins in Lerin(sko),
is or ethnic Bulgar origins, despite his, sadly, vociferous claims to the
contrary. Riste and others like him should also keep in mind that just as
many, if not more of his ethnic brethren (Macedonians), claim with equal
ferocity that they are Greeks, a product of the other anti-Macedonian
propaganda.
And finally i recommend to Riste and the others like him to make an attempt
to read the books "The Ethogenetic Differences Between the Macedonians and
the Bulgarians" by Aleksandar Donski. If for nothing else it will give them
a bibliography of writings (most of which are by writers from within
Bulgaria), that I am certain, most bugaromani are not aware of. The other
book, "Who Falsifies the History", by Gjorgje Radule (Georgi Radulov) is
published both in Macedonian and in Bulgarian. Amongst many other topics
there is a significant portion on "the 15 lies of the bulgarism" in the
bulgarian historiography.
Zhivko Apostolovski
----- Original Message -----
From: KaraM Kitapligi
Sent: Saturday, March 15, 2003 8:15 PM
Subject: re: O. Karatay
Dear Gospodin,
Sorry for replying from this account. I received your mail concerning the
Project Turk. Its story is universally very simple, but Bulgarically
ununderstandable. The Project aimed at preparing a gigantic publication
consisting everything about Turks. Naturally we included also proto-Bulgars.
In all books about Turks, in all languages including Bulgarian,
proto-Bulgars are classified among Turkic tribes. But, some Bulgarian
academicians reacted to our classification, as a revolutionary act. If
Bulgarians, Russians, Germans etc. accept them a Turkic group, OK, if Turks
do the same, it is not scientific, but nationalistic... That is all. I left
the project before finishing all, but it was published in total 37 volumes
with 35,000 pages. 6 of them are in English. You may find info at
www.yeniturkiye.com or www.projectturk.com. But there is nothing new about
Proto-Bulgars, except my article connecting founders of the Croatian and
Serbian medieval states to Proto-Bulgars.
With best wishes,
Osman Karatay
Post by Historian178
Todor,
The pathetic Macedonist (Makedonoman) Ilinden is a hopeless case.
I value highly your contributions, but only a miracle - I think - can help
Ilinden and his ilk sober up and face the truth, i.e., the fact that they
are
Post by Historian178
ethnic Bulgarians, a fact that their ancestors had no problem recognizing
/admitting and living with for centuries.
Regards to you and all other Truth lovers.
Christopher (Riste) Lerinski - an American descendant of Bulgarians from
Aegean
Post by Historian178
Macedonia
Wrong ng, Bulgar.

Nicolas
Yannis the Makedonian
2003-10-30 14:12:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Zhivko Apostolovski
To Riste, Todor and all other Macedonian bugaromani,
Below is a letter (reply) addressed to me, from the Turkish coordinator of
"Project Turk", a 37 volume history of the Turks, completed in 2002.
Dear SlavoSkopian propagandists,
Below is a letter written by Dame Gruev and sent to Sofia a month after
Ilinden uprising:
http://members.tripod.com/~dimobetchev/documents/ilinden.htm
Yannis
Macedonia, Greece
George S. Tsapanos
2003-10-30 15:37:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Zhivko Apostolovski
From his letter you should be able conclude (as Dr Karatay makes it as
clear>as a bright sunny day) that the REAL Bulgars are brethren with the Turks,
as>they are a TURKO-MONGOL race.>

SKOPIAN
Thank you for confirming our claims of YOUR origins.
Do you understand now, why you'll be NEVER Makedonians?



Regards to all ..................L.
"Vlachs, The Autochthonous
Of the Hellenic Peninsula".
Zhivko Apostolovski
2003-10-30 21:57:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by George S. Tsapanos
Post by Zhivko Apostolovski
From his letter you should be able conclude (as Dr Karatay makes it as
clear>as a bright sunny day) that the REAL Bulgars are brethren with the Turks,
as>they are a TURKO-MONGOL race.>
SKOPIAN
Thank you for confirming our claims of YOUR origins.
Do you understand now, why you'll be NEVER Makedonians?
Ligushko,

And all of us Macedonians thank you for confirming what we (and many
others) always knew about you - that you are a Vlach grkoman with a very
limited capacity for comprehension.
Post by George S. Tsapanos
Regards to all ..................L.
"Vlachs, The Autochthonous
Of the Hellenic Peninsula".
Asteras
2003-10-30 18:37:44 UTC
Permalink
"We are Slavs who came to this area in the sixth century ... we are
not descendants of the ancient Macedonians."
Quote from FYROM'S President Mr. Kiro Gligorov.
(from the Foreign Information Service Daily Report, Eastern Europe,
February 26, 1992, p. 35. )

"We are Macedonians but we are Slav Macedonians. That's who we are! We
have no connection to Alexander the Greek and his Macedonia. The
ancient Macedonians no longer exist, they had disappeared from history
long time ago. Our ancestors came here in the 5th and 6th century
(AD)."
Quote from FYROM'S President Mr. Kiro Gligorov.
(from the Toronto Star newspaper, March 15, 1992)

22 January 1999: FYROM'S Ambassador in Washington, Mrs. Ljubica
Acevshka, gave a speech on the present situation in the Balkans. At
the end of her speech answering questions Mrs. Acevshka said:
"We do not claim to be descendants of Alexander the Great." "Greece is
FYROM'S second largest trading partner, and its number one investor.
Instead of opting for war, we have chosen the mediation of the United
Nations, with talks on the ambassadorial level under Mr. Vance and Mr.
Nimitz." In reply to another question about the ethnic origin of the
people of FYROM, Ambassador Achevska stated that "we are Slavs and we
speak a Slav language."

24 February 1999: In an interview with the Ottawa Citizen, Gyordan
Veselinov, FYROM'S Ambassador to Canada, admitted, "We are not related
to the northern Greeks who produced leaders like Philip and Alexander
the Great. We are a Slav people and our language is closely related to
Bulgarian." He also commented "there is some confusion about the
identity of the people of this country."


On Thu, 30 Oct 2003 13:08:13 +1100, "Zhivko Apostolovski"
Post by Zhivko Apostolovski
To Riste, Todor and all other Macedonian bugaromani,
Below is a letter (reply) addressed to me, from the Turkish coordinator of
"Project Turk", a 37 volume history of the Turks, completed in 2002.
From his letter you should be able conclude (as Dr Karatay makes it as clear
as a bright sunny day) that the REAL Bulgars are brethren with the Turks, as
they are a TURKO-MONGOL race.
This has been said numerous times, but it's worth pointing out again, for
the benefit of the likes of the Macedonian odrodeni like Riste. The absurd
fact about the ethnic identity of the people living in Bulgaria today is
that almost all who identify as Bulgari (Bulgars) today are not of Bulgar
origins. At best(?), some of them may have some Bulgar blood in them. They
speak a non Bulgar(ian) (macedonic) languge, have non Bulgarian culture and
literacy, practice non Bulgarian rituals/customs, yet they ferociously claim
the Bulgarian ethnos as their own, abandoning in the process their true
ethnic identities (Macedonian, Trakian, Vlach, Serbian, etc). And those with
true ethnic Bulgarian origins are classified as ethnic minorities (like the
Gagauz in the north-east of Bulgaria and Muslims/Turks, predominantly in the
south-eastern parts of Bulgaria).
It is highly unlikely that Riste, especially, having origins in Lerin(sko),
is or ethnic Bulgar origins, despite his, sadly, vociferous claims to the
contrary. Riste and others like him should also keep in mind that just as
many, if not more of his ethnic brethren (Macedonians), claim with equal
ferocity that they are Greeks, a product of the other anti-Macedonian
propaganda.
And finally i recommend to Riste and the others like him to make an attempt
to read the books "The Ethogenetic Differences Between the Macedonians and
the Bulgarians" by Aleksandar Donski. If for nothing else it will give them
a bibliography of writings (most of which are by writers from within
Bulgaria), that I am certain, most bugaromani are not aware of. The other
book, "Who Falsifies the History", by Gjorgje Radule (Georgi Radulov) is
published both in Macedonian and in Bulgarian. Amongst many other topics
there is a significant portion on "the 15 lies of the bulgarism" in the
bulgarian historiography.
Zhivko Apostolovski
----- Original Message -----
From: KaraM Kitapligi
Sent: Saturday, March 15, 2003 8:15 PM
Subject: re: O. Karatay
Dear Gospodin,
Sorry for replying from this account. I received your mail concerning the
Project Turk. Its story is universally very simple, but Bulgarically
ununderstandable. The Project aimed at preparing a gigantic publication
consisting everything about Turks. Naturally we included also proto-Bulgars.
In all books about Turks, in all languages including Bulgarian,
proto-Bulgars are classified among Turkic tribes. But, some Bulgarian
academicians reacted to our classification, as a revolutionary act. If
Bulgarians, Russians, Germans etc. accept them a Turkic group, OK, if Turks
do the same, it is not scientific, but nationalistic... That is all. I left
the project before finishing all, but it was published in total 37 volumes
with 35,000 pages. 6 of them are in English. You may find info at
www.yeniturkiye.com or www.projectturk.com. But there is nothing new about
Proto-Bulgars, except my article connecting founders of the Croatian and
Serbian medieval states to Proto-Bulgars.
With best wishes,
Osman Karatay
Post by Historian178
Todor,
The pathetic Macedonist (Makedonoman) Ilinden is a hopeless case.
I value highly your contributions, but only a miracle - I think - can help
Ilinden and his ilk sober up and face the truth, i.e., the fact that they
are
Post by Historian178
ethnic Bulgarians, a fact that their ancestors had no problem recognizing
/admitting and living with for centuries.
Regards to you and all other Truth lovers.
Christopher (Riste) Lerinski - an American descendant of Bulgarians from
Aegean
Post by Historian178
Macedonia
Ilinden
2003-10-31 13:36:08 UTC
Permalink
Astera, how many times I have to tell you what Herodotus said about the
Macedonians.
Subject: Plutarchus,Herodotus,Demosthenes
Plutarchus wrote that the Macedonians had their own language.
Herodotus: According to Herodotus the Macedonians spoke a different
language from the Hellenes. Demosthenes: Demosthenes said the
Macedonians were neither of Greek origin nor were ever related to the
Greeks. At that time the Macedonians were called barbarians,meaning
aliens. Demosthenes also said: This man Philip is not only not a
Greek,or a man who has anything to do with us Greeks,but not even a
barbarian from a country with an honourable name: No,a pestilent
Macedonian fellow from a country where one could never buy a decent
slave before.!
Ilinden the Macedonian
Post by Asteras
"We are Slavs who came to this area in the sixth century ... we are
not descendants of the ancient Macedonians."
Quote from FYROM'S President Mr. Kiro Gligorov.
(from the Foreign Information Service Daily Report, Eastern Europe,
February 26, 1992, p. 35. )
"We are Macedonians but we are Slav Macedonians. That's who we are! We
have no connection to Alexander the Greek and his Macedonia. The
ancient Macedonians no longer exist, they had disappeared from history
long time ago. Our ancestors came here in the 5th and 6th century
(AD)."
Quote from FYROM'S President Mr. Kiro Gligorov.
(from the Toronto Star newspaper, March 15, 1992)
22 January 1999: FYROM'S Ambassador in Washington, Mrs. Ljubica
Acevshka, gave a speech on the present situation in the Balkans. At
"We do not claim to be descendants of Alexander the Great." "Greece is
FYROM'S second largest trading partner, and its number one investor.
Instead of opting for war, we have chosen the mediation of the United
Nations, with talks on the ambassadorial level under Mr. Vance and Mr.
Nimitz." In reply to another question about the ethnic origin of the
people of FYROM, Ambassador Achevska stated that "we are Slavs and we
speak a Slav language."
24 February 1999: In an interview with the Ottawa Citizen, Gyordan
Veselinov, FYROM'S Ambassador to Canada, admitted, "We are not related
to the northern Greeks who produced leaders like Philip and Alexander
the Great. We are a Slav people and our language is closely related to
Bulgarian." He also commented "there is some confusion about the
identity of the people of this country."
On Thu, 30 Oct 2003 13:08:13 +1100, "Zhivko Apostolovski"
Post by Zhivko Apostolovski
To Riste, Todor and all other Macedonian bugaromani,
Below is a letter (reply) addressed to me, from the Turkish coordinator of
"Project Turk", a 37 volume history of the Turks, completed in 2002.
From his letter you should be able conclude (as Dr Karatay makes it as clear
as a bright sunny day) that the REAL Bulgars are brethren with the Turks, as
they are a TURKO-MONGOL race.
This has been said numerous times, but it's worth pointing out again, for
the benefit of the likes of the Macedonian odrodeni like Riste. The absurd
fact about the ethnic identity of the people living in Bulgaria today is
that almost all who identify as Bulgari (Bulgars) today are not of Bulgar
origins. At best(?), some of them may have some Bulgar blood in them. They
speak a non Bulgar(ian) (macedonic) languge, have non Bulgarian culture and
literacy, practice non Bulgarian rituals/customs, yet they ferociously claim
the Bulgarian ethnos as their own, abandoning in the process their true
ethnic identities (Macedonian, Trakian, Vlach, Serbian, etc). And those with
true ethnic Bulgarian origins are classified as ethnic minorities (like the
Gagauz in the north-east of Bulgaria and Muslims/Turks, predominantly in the
south-eastern parts of Bulgaria).
It is highly unlikely that Riste, especially, having origins in Lerin(sko),
is or ethnic Bulgar origins, despite his, sadly, vociferous claims to the
contrary. Riste and others like him should also keep in mind that just as
many, if not more of his ethnic brethren (Macedonians), claim with equal
ferocity that they are Greeks, a product of the other anti-Macedonian
propaganda.
And finally i recommend to Riste and the others like him to make an attempt
to read the books "The Ethogenetic Differences Between the Macedonians and
the Bulgarians" by Aleksandar Donski. If for nothing else it will give them
a bibliography of writings (most of which are by writers from within
Bulgaria), that I am certain, most bugaromani are not aware of. The other
book, "Who Falsifies the History", by Gjorgje Radule (Georgi Radulov) is
published both in Macedonian and in Bulgarian. Amongst many other topics
there is a significant portion on "the 15 lies of the bulgarism" in the
bulgarian historiography.
Zhivko Apostolovski
----- Original Message -----
From: KaraM Kitapligi
Sent: Saturday, March 15, 2003 8:15 PM
Subject: re: O. Karatay
Dear Gospodin,
Sorry for replying from this account. I received your mail concerning the
Project Turk. Its story is universally very simple, but Bulgarically
ununderstandable. The Project aimed at preparing a gigantic publication
consisting everything about Turks. Naturally we included also proto-Bulgars.
In all books about Turks, in all languages including Bulgarian,
proto-Bulgars are classified among Turkic tribes. But, some Bulgarian
academicians reacted to our classification, as a revolutionary act. If
Bulgarians, Russians, Germans etc. accept them a Turkic group, OK, if Turks
do the same, it is not scientific, but nationalistic... That is all. I left
the project before finishing all, but it was published in total 37 volumes
with 35,000 pages. 6 of them are in English. You may find info at
www.yeniturkiye.com or www.projectturk.com. But there is nothing new about
Proto-Bulgars, except my article connecting founders of the Croatian and
Serbian medieval states to Proto-Bulgars.
With best wishes,
Osman Karatay
Post by Historian178
Todor,
The pathetic Macedonist (Makedonoman) Ilinden is a hopeless case.
I value highly your contributions, but only a miracle - I think - can help
Ilinden and his ilk sober up and face the truth, i.e., the fact that they
are
Post by Historian178
ethnic Bulgarians, a fact that their ancestors had no problem recognizing
/admitting and living with for centuries.
Regards to you and all other Truth lovers.
Christopher (Riste) Lerinski - an American descendant of Bulgarians from
Aegean
Post by Historian178
Macedonia
Nikolay
2003-10-30 20:07:31 UTC
Permalink
Dear Sir,

The proto-Bulgarians (as exactly the Turkish guy called them) and the
present Slav-Bulgarians and Volga-Bulgarians have little in common.
And nobody argue about it. But in the 7-9 centuries and even before it
in the Azov Bulgaria the mingling between proto-Bulgarians and Slavs
happened. That you can read in any history (but Macedonian). The final
step in that process was the Preslav Sabor – where the official lang.
of Bulgaria become Slavinian and official alphabet the ‘Kirilic' – as
you aware, I believe, this is not the alphabet created by sv. sv.
Kiril I Metodi but by the Bulgarians Followers of them, in Bulgaria,
for Bulgaria administration, ordered by Kniaz Boris.

However if you still not convience about the right of my fellow
Bulgarians to be called Bulgarians – please says so to the Russians,
France, Croatian and so.
They also pick the names of the master people and convert them to the
natives (Russ – Swed, franks – Germans, Croatians – syrbian trans.)
ivaylo
2003-10-30 23:39:33 UTC
Permalink
The genius strikes again!



So let me paraphrase a little bit:

This has been said numerous times, but it's worth pointing out again, for
the benefit of the likes of the Bulgarian odrodeni like Zhivko. The absurd
fact about the ethnic identity of the people living in Macedonia today is
that almost all who identify as Macedonians (Maketa) today are not of
Macedon
origins. At best (?), some of them may have some Macedonian blood in them.
They
speak a non Macedon(ian) (Bulgarian) languge, have non Macedonian culture
and
literacy, practice non Macedonia rituals/customs, yet they ferociously claim
the Macedonian ethnos as their own, abandoning in the process their true
ethnic identities (Bulgarian, Turkish, Thracian, Vlach, Greek, Albanian
Serbian, etc). And those with true ethnic Macedonian origins are classified
as ethnic minorities (like the
Greeks in the south of Macedonia and Albanians, predominantly in the
north-west parts of Macedonia).



The problem is this; although some of your statement about Bulgarians might
be factually correct (at least in some places) several uncomfortable (for
you) truths remain. Those who today claim a Bulgarian ethnicity can claim
(somewhat unbroken) cultural continuity from at least the 10th century AD -
same predominant religious faith, same language (more or less), same state
borders (more or less), etc. By contrast today's Maketa could not recognize
ancient Macedonian speech even if it hit them on their thick heads, would be
appalled by the religious practices of the historical Macedonians, and are
more likely frown up on rather than embrace homosexuality and incest.
Moreover they have to face the reality that their greatest "heroes" from the
near past enthusiastically embraced the Bulgarian identity (and 99% of their
descendents living in Bulgaria still do). Better luck next time!



Ivaylo
Hristo Brachkov
2003-10-31 10:28:11 UTC
Permalink
ti pak parvo si podobri angliiskia predi da zatormoziavash vsichki s
bratvejite si!!!

In English: Better improve your english first before bothering everybody
with your idle talk.


Hristo
Post by ivaylo
The genius strikes again!
This has been said numerous times, but it's worth pointing out again, for
the benefit of the likes of the Bulgarian odrodeni like Zhivko. The absurd
fact about the ethnic identity of the people living in Macedonia today is
that almost all who identify as Macedonians (Maketa) today are not of
Macedon
origins. At best (?), some of them may have some Macedonian blood in them.
They
speak a non Macedon(ian) (Bulgarian) languge, have non Macedonian culture
and
literacy, practice non Macedonia rituals/customs, yet they ferociously claim
the Macedonian ethnos as their own, abandoning in the process their true
ethnic identities (Bulgarian, Turkish, Thracian, Vlach, Greek, Albanian
Serbian, etc). And those with true ethnic Macedonian origins are classified
as ethnic minorities (like the
Greeks in the south of Macedonia and Albanians, predominantly in the
north-west parts of Macedonia).
The problem is this; although some of your statement about Bulgarians might
be factually correct (at least in some places) several uncomfortable (for
you) truths remain. Those who today claim a Bulgarian ethnicity can claim
(somewhat unbroken) cultural continuity from at least the 10th century AD -
same predominant religious faith, same language (more or less), same state
borders (more or less), etc. By contrast today's Maketa could not recognize
ancient Macedonian speech even if it hit them on their thick heads, would be
appalled by the religious practices of the historical Macedonians, and are
more likely frown up on rather than embrace homosexuality and incest.
Moreover they have to face the reality that their greatest "heroes" from the
near past enthusiastically embraced the Bulgarian identity (and 99% of their
descendents living in Bulgaria still do). Better luck next time!
Ivaylo
June R Harton
2003-11-01 07:05:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Hristo Brachkov
ti pak parvo si podobri angliiskia predi da zatormoziavash vsichki s
bratvejite si!!!
In English: Better improve your english first before bothering everybody
with your idle talk.
Bulgar, just keep your lies out of here.


from: Spirit of Truth

(using June's e-mail to communicate to you)!
Hristo Brachkov
2003-11-01 11:49:07 UTC
Permalink
Hey, "Spirit of Truth", don't you have your own e-mail or this is too small
detail for such a BIG truth?

;)
Post by June R Harton
Post by Hristo Brachkov
ti pak parvo si podobri angliiskia predi da zatormoziavash vsichki s
bratvejite si!!!
In English: Better improve your english first before bothering everybody
with your idle talk.
Bulgar, just keep your lies out of here.
from: Spirit of Truth
(using June's e-mail to communicate to you)!
June R Harton
2003-11-01 05:22:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Zhivko Apostolovski
To Riste, Todor and all other Macedonian bugaromani,
Below is a letter (reply) addressed to me, from the Turkish coordinator of
"Project Turk", a 37 volume history of the Turks, completed in 2002.
From his letter you should be able conclude (as Dr Karatay makes it as clear
as a bright sunny day) that the REAL Bulgars are brethren with the Turks, as
they are a TURKO-MONGOL race.
No, Bulgar, you and the rest of your fyromian brethren are the REAL Bulgars.

Folks, you only have to look here to see that the Fyrom Slavic majority,
like that Bulgar poster ilindra, Nicholov and Slavko are simply West
Bulgarians and have no connection to 'Macedonia' anything:

In a letter to Prof. Marin Drinov of May 25, 1888 Kuzman Shapkarev writes:
"But even stranger is the name Macedonians, which was imposed on us only 10
to 15 years ago by outsiders, and not as something by our own
intellectuals... Yet the people in Macedonia know nothing of that ancient
name, reintroduced today with a cunning aim on the one hand and a stupid one
on the other. They know the older word: "Bugari", although mispronounced:
they have even adopted it as peculiarly theirs, inapplicable to other
Bulgarians. You can find more about this in the introduction to the booklets
I am sending you. They call their own Macedono-Bulgarian dialect the
"Bugarski language", while the rest of the Bulgarian dialects they refer to
as the "Shopski language". (Makedonski pregled, IX, 2, 1934, p. 55; the
original letter is kept in the Marin Drinov Museum in Sofia, and it is
available for examination and study)
Here is the text in the original:

"No pochudno e imeto Makedonci, koeto naskoro, edvay predi 10-15 godini, ni
natrapiha i to otvqn, a ne kakto nyakoi mislyat ot samata nasha
inteligenciya... Narodqt obache v Makedoniya ne znae nishto za tova
arhaichesko, a dnes, s lukava cel ot edna strana, s glupeshka ot druga,
podnoveno prozvishte; toy si znae postaroto: Bugari, makar i nepravilno
proiznasyano, daje osvoyava si go kato sobstveno i preimushtestveno svoe,
nejeli za drugite Bqlgari. Za tova shte vidite i v predgovora na izpratenite
mi knijici. Toy naricha Bugarski ezik svoeto Makaedono-bqlgarsko narechie,
kogato drugite bqlgarski narechiya naricha Shopski."


And here:


Reference source for Gotse Delchev's numerous utterings of 'We are
Bulgarians'......

http://www.ucc.ie/staff/jprodr/macedonia/macmodnat2.html

Even Gotse Delchev, the famous Macedonian revolutionary leader, whose nom de
guerre was Ahil (Achilles), refers to "the Slavs of Macedonia as
'Bulgarians' in an offhanded manner without seeming to indicate that such a
designation was a point of contention" (Perry 1988:23).
In his correspondence Gotse Delchev often states clearly and simply, "We are
Bulgarians" (MacDermott 1978:192,273).


And here:


For fair use only.

http://members.tripod.com/~dimobetchev/documents/ilinden.htm

" Considering the critical and terrible situation that the Bulgarian
population of the Bitola Vilayet found itself in and following the ravages
and cruelties done by the Turkish troops and irregulars, ... considering
the fact that everything Bulgarian runs the risk of perishing and
disappearing without a trace because of violence, hunger, and the upcoming
misery, the Head Quarters finds it to be its obligation to draw the
attention of the respected Bulgarian government to the pernicious
consequences vis-a-vis the Bulgarian nation, in case the latter does not
fulfill its duty towards its brethren of race here in an imposing fashion
which is necessary by virtue of the present ordeal for the common Bulgarian
Fatherland...

...Being in command of our people's movement, we appeal to you on behalf of
the enslaved Bulgarian to help him in the most effective way - by waging
war.We believe that the response of the people in free Bulgaria will be the
same.

... No bulgarian school is opened, neither will it be opened... Nobody
thinks of education when he is outlawed by the state because he bears the
name Bulgar...


Waiting for your patriotic intervention, we are pleased to inform you that
we have in our disposition the armed forces we have spared by now.

The Head Quarters of the Ilinden Uprising"

Damian GRUEV, Boris SARAFOV, Atanas LOZANTCHEV

This memorandum was handed to Dr.Kozhuharov, the Bulgarian consul in Bitola,

and transmitted by him to the government in Sofia with report N441 from
September 17th, 1903. "

And here:


http://www.bulgaria.com/VMRO/document.htm

http://www.bulgaria.com/VMRO/documen1.htm

http://www.bulgaria.com/VMRO/documen2.htm

http://www.bulgaria.com/VMRO/documen3.htm

http://www.bulgaria.com/VMRO/drzhava.htm

http://www.bulgaria.com/VMRO/exarchy.htm

http://w3.tyenet.com/kozlich/mapovska4a.htm

And finally here

http://www.bulgaria.com/VMRO/bitola06.htm

http://www.historymuseum.org/items.php3?nid=199&name=ochrid





from: Spirit of Truth

(using June's e-mail to communicate to you)!
Nikolay
2003-11-02 04:32:31 UTC
Permalink
How Macedonian language was create:
http://www.macedoniainfo.com/bul/knigi/ik/ik_2.html

Date:
"???????????? ??????? ?? ????????????? ?? ??????????? ??????? ??
???????????? ?? ???????????? ?????? ? ???????????? ??????????? j???? ,
????j?, 27.XI.-3.XII. 1944"

STENOGRAPHIC Notes from the conference of the philological comity for
lay down of the Macedonian alphabet and Macedonian literature
language, Skopje, 27.11-3.12 1944.

Who can be so fortune to know when, who and how lay down his language
but our brother Macedonians
Asteras
2003-11-02 11:24:20 UTC
Permalink
"We are Slavs who came to this area in the sixth century ... we are
not descendants of the ancient Macedonians."
Quote from FYROM'S President Mr. Kiro Gligorov.
(from the Foreign Information Service Daily Report, Eastern Europe,
February 26, 1992, p. 35. )

"We are Macedonians but we are Slav Macedonians. That's who we are! We
have no connection to Alexander the Greek and his Macedonia. The
ancient Macedonians no longer exist, they had disappeared from history
long time ago. Our ancestors came here in the 5th and 6th century
(AD)."
Quote from FYROM'S President Mr. Kiro Gligorov.
(from the Toronto Star newspaper, March 15, 1992)

22 January 1999: FYROM'S Ambassador in Washington, Mrs. Ljubica
Acevshka, gave a speech on the present situation in the Balkans. At
the end of her speech answering questions Mrs. Acevshka said:
"We do not claim to be descendants of Alexander the Great." "Greece is
FYROM'S second largest trading partner, and its number one investor.
Instead of opting for war, we have chosen the mediation of the United
Nations, with talks on the ambassadorial level under Mr. Vance and Mr.
Nimitz." In reply to another question about the ethnic origin of the
people of FYROM, Ambassador Achevska stated that "we are Slavs and we
speak a Slav language."

24 February 1999: In an interview with the Ottawa Citizen, Gyordan
Veselinov, FYROM'S Ambassador to Canada, admitted, "We are not related
to the northern Greeks who produced leaders like Philip and Alexander
the Great. We are a Slav people and our language is closely related to
Bulgarian." He also commented "there is some confusion about the
identity of the people of this country."
Post by Nikolay
http://www.macedoniainfo.com/bul/knigi/ik/ik_2.html
"???????????? ??????? ?? ????????????? ?? ??????????? ??????? ??
???????????? ?? ???????????? ?????? ? ???????????? ??????????? j???? ,
????j?, 27.XI.-3.XII. 1944"
STENOGRAPHIC Notes from the conference of the philological comity for
lay down of the Macedonian alphabet and Macedonian literature
language, Skopje, 27.11-3.12 1944.
Who can be so fortune to know when, who and how lay down his language
but our brother Macedonians
Nikolay
2003-11-02 14:41:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Asteras
"We are Slavs who came to this area in the sixth century ... we are
not descendants of the ancient Macedonians."
Quote from FYROM'S President Mr. Kiro Gligorov.
(from the Foreign Information Service Daily Report, Eastern Europe,
February 26, 1992, p. 35. )
Are you impress by his knowladge?
;-)
Nikolay
2003-11-02 14:57:42 UTC
Permalink
By the way the newest and the hottest theory

Slavs are peon and Macedonians - how flee the Macedonia to the Pripet
and Russian /Ukraine/ then become Slavinian and then return to their
own father land.

And before laughing:
The Professor at Columbian University teaches that here in USA. I read
the article by myself.
/not on official site but - who knows/

Same with some 'professor' from Slovenia - who translate ETRUSIAN with
Slovenian /Macedonia to be true/ alphabet and Slovenian Dialect? And
this is for real.
And the same professor said - the antique Macedonian written records
are very easy to be translate with help of his system (Slovenian with
'Macedonian' alphabet) but 'need further investigation'.

If you laugh now even more - Listen this
He 'proves' Venetian is Slavinian tribe (and of course never heard
about Rome authors ;-) and the Slovenian even and entire council of
'some academy or so' is agree - publication, conference and etc.

P.S. And how says fantastic is in trouble novadays ;-)

Nikolay
June R Harton
2003-11-05 07:31:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Nikolay
By the way the newest and the hottest theory
Slavs are peon and Macedonians - how flee the Macedonia to the Pripet
and Russian /Ukraine/ then become Slavinian and then return to their
own father land.
The Professor at Columbian University teaches that here in USA. I read
the article by myself.
/not on official site but - who knows/
Same with some 'professor' from Slovenia - who translate ETRUSIAN with
Slovenian /Macedonia to be true/ alphabet and Slovenian Dialect? And
this is for real.
And the same professor said - the antique Macedonian written records
are very easy to be translate with help of his system (Slovenian with
'Macedonian' alphabet) but 'need further investigation'.
If you laugh now even more - Listen this
He 'proves' Venetian is Slavinian tribe (and of course never heard
about Rome authors ;-) and the Slovenian even and entire council of
'some academy or so' is agree - publication, conference and etc.
P.S. And how says fantastic is in trouble novadays ;-)
Nikolay
Yes, they are hilarious!



from: Spirit of Truth

(using June's e-mail to communicate to you)!

Ilinden
2003-11-03 01:46:50 UTC
Permalink
Astera, Herodotus said the Hellenes and the Greki they had nothing in
common with the Macedonians, I believe Herodotus not Asteras who was born
recently.
The Greek author N. Mertsou translated the Russian book "Svarnut" into
Greek in 1986. May 9th, 1960, on pages 468-469 Harilaos Florakis said
about a people in Aegean Macedonia who are not Greek, Bulgarians nor
Serbs. They have their own language, their own land, their own
traditions, songs and food. And these people are Macedonians.
Should I believe Harilaos Florakis or should I believe you fanatic
nationalist Greki who only spew propaganda? Of course I believe
Florakis, he speaks the truth!
Ilinden the Macedonian
Post by Asteras
"We are Slavs who came to this area in the sixth century ... we are
not descendants of the ancient Macedonians."
Quote from FYROM'S President Mr. Kiro Gligorov.
(from the Foreign Information Service Daily Report, Eastern Europe,
February 26, 1992, p. 35. )
"We are Macedonians but we are Slav Macedonians. That's who we are! We
have no connection to Alexander the Greek and his Macedonia. The
ancient Macedonians no longer exist, they had disappeared from history
long time ago. Our ancestors came here in the 5th and 6th century
(AD)."
Quote from FYROM'S President Mr. Kiro Gligorov.
(from the Toronto Star newspaper, March 15, 1992)
22 January 1999: FYROM'S Ambassador in Washington, Mrs. Ljubica
Acevshka, gave a speech on the present situation in the Balkans. At
"We do not claim to be descendants of Alexander the Great." "Greece is
FYROM'S second largest trading partner, and its number one investor.
Instead of opting for war, we have chosen the mediation of the United
Nations, with talks on the ambassadorial level under Mr. Vance and Mr.
Nimitz." In reply to another question about the ethnic origin of the
people of FYROM, Ambassador Achevska stated that "we are Slavs and we
speak a Slav language."
24 February 1999: In an interview with the Ottawa Citizen, Gyordan
Veselinov, FYROM'S Ambassador to Canada, admitted, "We are not related
to the northern Greeks who produced leaders like Philip and Alexander
the Great. We are a Slav people and our language is closely related to
Bulgarian." He also commented "there is some confusion about the
identity of the people of this country."
Post by Nikolay
http://www.macedoniainfo.com/bul/knigi/ik/ik_2.html
"???????????? ??????? ?? ????????????? ?? ??????????? ??????? ??
???????????? ?? ???????????? ?????? ? ???????????? ??????????? j???? ,
????j?, 27.XI.-3.XII. 1944"
STENOGRAPHIC Notes from the conference of the philological comity for
lay down of the Macedonian alphabet and Macedonian literature
language, Skopje, 27.11-3.12 1944.
Who can be so fortune to know when, who and how lay down his language
but our brother Macedonians
WolfWolf
2003-11-03 02:19:43 UTC
Permalink
Ilinden, the Romans had a Latin (not Greek!) proverb:
"IN VINO VERITAS" (in the wine lays the truth)
And here is the proof - read the labels carefully:
Loading Image...

WolfWolf
The European
Post by Ilinden
Astera, Herodotus said the Hellenes and the Greki they had nothing in
common with the Macedonians, I believe Herodotus not Asteras who was born
recently.
The Greek author N. Mertsou translated the Russian book "Svarnut" into
Greek in 1986. May 9th, 1960, on pages 468-469 Harilaos Florakis said
about a people in Aegean Macedonia who are not Greek, Bulgarians nor
Serbs. They have their own language, their own land, their own
traditions, songs and food. And these people are Macedonians.
Should I believe Harilaos Florakis or should I believe you fanatic
nationalist Greki who only spew propaganda? Of course I believe
Florakis, he speaks the truth!
Ilinden the Macedonian
Post by Asteras
"We are Slavs who came to this area in the sixth century ... we are
not descendants of the ancient Macedonians."
Quote from FYROM'S President Mr. Kiro Gligorov.
(from the Foreign Information Service Daily Report, Eastern Europe,
February 26, 1992, p. 35. )
"We are Macedonians but we are Slav Macedonians. That's who we are! We
have no connection to Alexander the Greek and his Macedonia. The
ancient Macedonians no longer exist, they had disappeared from history
long time ago. Our ancestors came here in the 5th and 6th century
(AD)."
Quote from FYROM'S President Mr. Kiro Gligorov.
(from the Toronto Star newspaper, March 15, 1992)
22 January 1999: FYROM'S Ambassador in Washington, Mrs. Ljubica
Acevshka, gave a speech on the present situation in the Balkans. At
"We do not claim to be descendants of Alexander the Great." "Greece is
FYROM'S second largest trading partner, and its number one investor.
Instead of opting for war, we have chosen the mediation of the United
Nations, with talks on the ambassadorial level under Mr. Vance and Mr.
Nimitz." In reply to another question about the ethnic origin of the
people of FYROM, Ambassador Achevska stated that "we are Slavs and we
speak a Slav language."
24 February 1999: In an interview with the Ottawa Citizen, Gyordan
Veselinov, FYROM'S Ambassador to Canada, admitted, "We are not related
to the northern Greeks who produced leaders like Philip and Alexander
the Great. We are a Slav people and our language is closely related to
Bulgarian." He also commented "there is some confusion about the
identity of the people of this country."
Post by Nikolay
http://www.macedoniainfo.com/bul/knigi/ik/ik_2.html
"???????????? ??????? ?? ????????????? ?? ??????????? ??????? ??
???????????? ?? ???????????? ?????? ? ???????????? ??????????? j???? ,
????j?, 27.XI.-3.XII. 1944"
STENOGRAPHIC Notes from the conference of the philological comity for
lay down of the Macedonian alphabet and Macedonian literature
language, Skopje, 27.11-3.12 1944.
Who can be so fortune to know when, who and how lay down his language
but our brother Macedonians
rikopal
2003-11-03 14:01:24 UTC
Permalink
Doggy you are a pathetic man...
Post by WolfWolf
"IN VINO VERITAS" (in the wine lays the truth)
http://www.barryfitzwilliam.com/images/macedon.jpg
WolfWolf
The European
Post by Ilinden
Astera, Herodotus said the Hellenes and the Greki they had nothing in
common with the Macedonians, I believe Herodotus not Asteras who was born
recently.
The Greek author N. Mertsou translated the Russian book "Svarnut" into
Greek in 1986. May 9th, 1960, on pages 468-469 Harilaos Florakis said
about a people in Aegean Macedonia who are not Greek, Bulgarians nor
Serbs. They have their own language, their own land, their own
traditions, songs and food. And these people are Macedonians.
Should I believe Harilaos Florakis or should I believe you fanatic
nationalist Greki who only spew propaganda? Of course I believe
Florakis, he speaks the truth!
Ilinden the Macedonian
Post by Asteras
"We are Slavs who came to this area in the sixth century ... we are
not descendants of the ancient Macedonians."
Quote from FYROM'S President Mr. Kiro Gligorov.
(from the Foreign Information Service Daily Report, Eastern Europe,
February 26, 1992, p. 35. )
"We are Macedonians but we are Slav Macedonians. That's who we are! We
have no connection to Alexander the Greek and his Macedonia. The
ancient Macedonians no longer exist, they had disappeared from history
long time ago. Our ancestors came here in the 5th and 6th century
(AD)."
Quote from FYROM'S President Mr. Kiro Gligorov.
(from the Toronto Star newspaper, March 15, 1992)
22 January 1999: FYROM'S Ambassador in Washington, Mrs. Ljubica
Acevshka, gave a speech on the present situation in the Balkans. At
"We do not claim to be descendants of Alexander the Great." "Greece is
FYROM'S second largest trading partner, and its number one investor.
Instead of opting for war, we have chosen the mediation of the United
Nations, with talks on the ambassadorial level under Mr. Vance and Mr.
Nimitz." In reply to another question about the ethnic origin of the
people of FYROM, Ambassador Achevska stated that "we are Slavs and we
speak a Slav language."
24 February 1999: In an interview with the Ottawa Citizen, Gyordan
Veselinov, FYROM'S Ambassador to Canada, admitted, "We are not related
to the northern Greeks who produced leaders like Philip and Alexander
the Great. We are a Slav people and our language is closely related to
Bulgarian." He also commented "there is some confusion about the
identity of the people of this country."
Post by Nikolay
http://www.macedoniainfo.com/bul/knigi/ik/ik_2.html
"???????????? ??????? ?? ????????????? ?? ??????????? ??????? ??
???????????? ?? ???????????? ?????? ? ???????????? ??????????? j???? ,
????j?, 27.XI.-3.XII. 1944"
STENOGRAPHIC Notes from the conference of the philological comity for
lay down of the Macedonian alphabet and Macedonian literature
language, Skopje, 27.11-3.12 1944.
Who can be so fortune to know when, who and how lay down his language
but our brother Macedonians
WolfWolf
2003-11-03 19:32:29 UTC
Permalink
This from some creep who lucked out and managed to get an internet connection to pass
time between sodomizing sheep....

WolfWolf
The European
Post by rikopal
Doggy you are a pathetic man...
Post by WolfWolf
"IN VINO VERITAS" (in the wine lays the truth)
http://www.barryfitzwilliam.com/images/macedon.jpg
WolfWolf
The European
Post by Ilinden
Astera, Herodotus said the Hellenes and the Greki they had nothing in
common with the Macedonians, I believe Herodotus not Asteras who was
born
Post by WolfWolf
Post by Ilinden
recently.
The Greek author N. Mertsou translated the Russian book "Svarnut" into
Greek in 1986. May 9th, 1960, on pages 468-469 Harilaos Florakis said
about a people in Aegean Macedonia who are not Greek, Bulgarians nor
Serbs. They have their own language, their own land, their own
traditions, songs and food. And these people are Macedonians.
Should I believe Harilaos Florakis or should I believe you fanatic
nationalist Greki who only spew propaganda? Of course I believe
Florakis, he speaks the truth!
Ilinden the Macedonian
Post by Asteras
"We are Slavs who came to this area in the sixth century ... we are
not descendants of the ancient Macedonians."
Quote from FYROM'S President Mr. Kiro Gligorov.
(from the Foreign Information Service Daily Report, Eastern Europe,
February 26, 1992, p. 35. )
"We are Macedonians but we are Slav Macedonians. That's who we are! We
have no connection to Alexander the Greek and his Macedonia. The
ancient Macedonians no longer exist, they had disappeared from history
long time ago. Our ancestors came here in the 5th and 6th century
(AD)."
Quote from FYROM'S President Mr. Kiro Gligorov.
(from the Toronto Star newspaper, March 15, 1992)
22 January 1999: FYROM'S Ambassador in Washington, Mrs. Ljubica
Acevshka, gave a speech on the present situation in the Balkans. At
"We do not claim to be descendants of Alexander the Great." "Greece is
FYROM'S second largest trading partner, and its number one investor.
Instead of opting for war, we have chosen the mediation of the United
Nations, with talks on the ambassadorial level under Mr. Vance and Mr.
Nimitz." In reply to another question about the ethnic origin of the
people of FYROM, Ambassador Achevska stated that "we are Slavs and we
speak a Slav language."
24 February 1999: In an interview with the Ottawa Citizen, Gyordan
Veselinov, FYROM'S Ambassador to Canada, admitted, "We are not related
to the northern Greeks who produced leaders like Philip and Alexander
the Great. We are a Slav people and our language is closely related to
Bulgarian." He also commented "there is some confusion about the
identity of the people of this country."
Post by Nikolay
http://www.macedoniainfo.com/bul/knigi/ik/ik_2.html
"???????????? ??????? ?? ????????????? ?? ??????????? ??????? ??
???????????? ?? ???????????? ?????? ? ???????????? ??????????? j????
,
Post by WolfWolf
Post by Ilinden
Post by Asteras
Post by Nikolay
????j?, 27.XI.-3.XII. 1944"
STENOGRAPHIC Notes from the conference of the philological comity for
lay down of the Macedonian alphabet and Macedonian literature
language, Skopje, 27.11-3.12 1944.
Who can be so fortune to know when, who and how lay down his language
but our brother Macedonians
Yannis the Makedonian
2003-11-03 14:32:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ilinden
Astera, Herodotus said the Hellenes and the Greki they had nothing in
common with the Macedonians, I believe Herodotus not Asteras who was born
recently.
The Greek author N. Mertsou translated the Russian book "Svarnut" into
Greek in 1986. May 9th, 1960, on pages 468-469 Harilaos Florakis said
about a people in Aegean Macedonia who are not Greek, Bulgarians nor
Serbs. They have their own language, their own land, their own
traditions, songs and food. And these people are Macedonians.
Should I believe Harilaos Florakis or should I believe you fanatic
nationalist Greki who only spew propaganda? Of course I believe
Florakis, he speaks the truth!
Ilinden the SlavoSkopian
LIAR !!
Harilaos Florakis does not say that these people are Macedonians because he
know what Macedonian means. He knows that they speak Slav and that
Macedonians never were Slav or Slav speaking people. He knows that
Amyntaion is a Macedonian name but Sorovic is NOT !.
He just does not know how to call them. Well, there is a good answer until
they found a proper name for themselves: SlavoSkopians. If this people
really want to be Macedonians let me tell you how to achieve it: Let them
speak Greek and spread Greek Language and Civilization to the World just
like Macedonians were always doing.
Yannis
Macedonia, Greece
WolfWolf
2003-11-03 19:31:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Yannis the Makedonian
Post by Ilinden
Astera, Herodotus said the Hellenes and the Greki they had nothing in
common with the Macedonians, I believe Herodotus not Asteras who was born
recently.
The Greek author N. Mertsou translated the Russian book "Svarnut" into
Greek in 1986. May 9th, 1960, on pages 468-469 Harilaos Florakis said
about a people in Aegean Macedonia who are not Greek, Bulgarians nor
Serbs. They have their own language, their own land, their own
traditions, songs and food. And these people are Macedonians.
Should I believe Harilaos Florakis or should I believe you fanatic
nationalist Greki who only spew propaganda? Of course I believe
Florakis, he speaks the truth!
Ilinden the SlavoSkopian
Harilaos Florakis does not say that these people are Macedonians
Macedonians were always Macedonians, not Greeks.

WolfWolf
The European
Jason lambrou
2003-11-03 22:43:06 UTC
Permalink
Τι λες βρε μαλακα.
Post by Ilinden
Astera, Herodotus said the Hellenes and the Greki they had nothing in
common with the Macedonians, I believe Herodotus not Asteras who was born
recently.
The Greek author N. Mertsou translated the Russian book "Svarnut" into
Greek in 1986. May 9th, 1960, on pages 468-469 Harilaos Florakis said
about a people in Aegean Macedonia who are not Greek, Bulgarians nor
Serbs. They have their own language, their own land, their own
traditions, songs and food. And these people are Macedonians.
Should I believe Harilaos Florakis or should I believe you fanatic
nationalist Greki who only spew propaganda? Of course I believe
Florakis, he speaks the truth!
Ilinden the Macedonian
Post by Asteras
"We are Slavs who came to this area in the sixth century ... we are
not descendants of the ancient Macedonians."
Quote from FYROM'S President Mr. Kiro Gligorov.
(from the Foreign Information Service Daily Report, Eastern Europe,
February 26, 1992, p. 35. )
"We are Macedonians but we are Slav Macedonians. That's who we are! We
have no connection to Alexander the Greek and his Macedonia. The
ancient Macedonians no longer exist, they had disappeared from history
long time ago. Our ancestors came here in the 5th and 6th century
(AD)."
Quote from FYROM'S President Mr. Kiro Gligorov.
(from the Toronto Star newspaper, March 15, 1992)
22 January 1999: FYROM'S Ambassador in Washington, Mrs. Ljubica
Acevshka, gave a speech on the present situation in the Balkans. At
"We do not claim to be descendants of Alexander the Great." "Greece is
FYROM'S second largest trading partner, and its number one investor.
Instead of opting for war, we have chosen the mediation of the United
Nations, with talks on the ambassadorial level under Mr. Vance and Mr.
Nimitz." In reply to another question about the ethnic origin of the
people of FYROM, Ambassador Achevska stated that "we are Slavs and we
speak a Slav language."
24 February 1999: In an interview with the Ottawa Citizen, Gyordan
Veselinov, FYROM'S Ambassador to Canada, admitted, "We are not related
to the northern Greeks who produced leaders like Philip and Alexander
the Great. We are a Slav people and our language is closely related to
Bulgarian." He also commented "there is some confusion about the
identity of the people of this country."
Post by Nikolay
http://www.macedoniainfo.com/bul/knigi/ik/ik_2.html
"???????????? ??????? ?? ????????????? ?? ??????????? ??????? ??
???????????? ?? ???????????? ?????? ? ???????????? ??????????? j???? ,
????j?, 27.XI.-3.XII. 1944"
STENOGRAPHIC Notes from the conference of the philological comity for
lay down of the Macedonian alphabet and Macedonian literature
language, Skopje, 27.11-3.12 1944.
Who can be so fortune to know when, who and how lay down his language
but our brother Macedonians
June R Harton
2003-11-01 05:32:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Zhivko Apostolovski
And finally i recommend to Riste and the others like him to make an attempt
to read the books "The Ethogenetic Differences Between the Macedonians and
the Bulgarians" by Aleksandar Donski. If for nothing else it will give them
a belly laugh for it's stupidities!

By the way, Donski has completely failed to confront me and always runs
away.
Not only is he pitiful for denying his real origin...Bulgarian..but he is a
COWARD
of classic proportions.

Folks, you only have to look here to see that the Fyrom Slavic majority,
like that Bulgar poster ilindra, Nicholov and Slavko are simply West
Bulgarians and have no connection to 'Macedonia' anything:

In a letter to Prof. Marin Drinov of May 25, 1888 Kuzman Shapkarev writes:
"But even stranger is the name Macedonians, which was imposed on us only 10
to 15 years ago by outsiders, and not as something by our own
intellectuals... Yet the people in Macedonia know nothing of that ancient
name, reintroduced today with a cunning aim on the one hand and a stupid one
on the other. They know the older word: "Bugari", although mispronounced:
they have even adopted it as peculiarly theirs, inapplicable to other
Bulgarians. You can find more about this in the introduction to the booklets
I am sending you. They call their own Macedono-Bulgarian dialect the
"Bugarski language", while the rest of the Bulgarian dialects they refer to
as the "Shopski language". (Makedonski pregled, IX, 2, 1934, p. 55; the
original letter is kept in the Marin Drinov Museum in Sofia, and it is
available for examination and study)
Here is the text in the original:

"No pochudno e imeto Makedonci, koeto naskoro, edvay predi 10-15 godini, ni
natrapiha i to otvqn, a ne kakto nyakoi mislyat ot samata nasha
inteligenciya... Narodqt obache v Makedoniya ne znae nishto za tova
arhaichesko, a dnes, s lukava cel ot edna strana, s glupeshka ot druga,
podnoveno prozvishte; toy si znae postaroto: Bugari, makar i nepravilno
proiznasyano, daje osvoyava si go kato sobstveno i preimushtestveno svoe,
nejeli za drugite Bqlgari. Za tova shte vidite i v predgovora na izpratenite
mi knijici. Toy naricha Bugarski ezik svoeto Makaedono-bqlgarsko narechie,
kogato drugite bqlgarski narechiya naricha Shopski."


And here:


Reference source for Gotse Delchev's numerous utterings of 'We are
Bulgarians'......

http://www.ucc.ie/staff/jprodr/macedonia/macmodnat2.html

Even Gotse Delchev, the famous Macedonian revolutionary leader, whose nom de
guerre was Ahil (Achilles), refers to "the Slavs of Macedonia as
'Bulgarians' in an offhanded manner without seeming to indicate that such a
designation was a point of contention" (Perry 1988:23).
In his correspondence Gotse Delchev often states clearly and simply, "We are
Bulgarians" (MacDermott 1978:192,273).


And here:


For fair use only.

http://members.tripod.com/~dimobetchev/documents/ilinden.htm

" Considering the critical and terrible situation that the Bulgarian
population of the Bitola Vilayet found itself in and following the ravages
and cruelties done by the Turkish troops and irregulars, ... considering
the fact that everything Bulgarian runs the risk of perishing and
disappearing without a trace because of violence, hunger, and the upcoming
misery, the Head Quarters finds it to be its obligation to draw the
attention of the respected Bulgarian government to the pernicious
consequences vis-a-vis the Bulgarian nation, in case the latter does not
fulfill its duty towards its brethren of race here in an imposing fashion
which is necessary by virtue of the present ordeal for the common Bulgarian
Fatherland...

...Being in command of our people's movement, we appeal to you on behalf of
the enslaved Bulgarian to help him in the most effective way - by waging
war.We believe that the response of the people in free Bulgaria will be the
same.

... No bulgarian school is opened, neither will it be opened... Nobody
thinks of education when he is outlawed by the state because he bears the
name Bulgar...


Waiting for your patriotic intervention, we are pleased to inform you that
we have in our disposition the armed forces we have spared by now.

The Head Quarters of the Ilinden Uprising"

Damian GRUEV, Boris SARAFOV, Atanas LOZANTCHEV

This memorandum was handed to Dr.Kozhuharov, the Bulgarian consul in Bitola,

and transmitted by him to the government in Sofia with report N441 from
September 17th, 1903. "

And here:


http://www.bulgaria.com/VMRO/document.htm

http://www.bulgaria.com/VMRO/documen1.htm

http://www.bulgaria.com/VMRO/documen2.htm

http://www.bulgaria.com/VMRO/documen3.htm

http://www.bulgaria.com/VMRO/drzhava.htm

http://www.bulgaria.com/VMRO/exarchy.htm

http://w3.tyenet.com/kozlich/mapovska4a.htm

And finally here

http://www.bulgaria.com/VMRO/bitola06.htm

http://www.historymuseum.org/items.php3?nid=199&name=ochrid





from: Spirit of Truth

(using June's e-mail to communicate to you)!
rikopal
2003-10-29 13:15:15 UTC
Permalink
todor, the number of Slavs living in Greece now are under 5,000
according to the last 3 votings plus very few of them
state themselves different ethnicity than Greek.
Post by Todor
Outgoing No 86/08 Sept. 1997
Attention: Mr. Kiro Gligorov
President of the Republic of Macedonia
Skopje
O P E N L E T T E R
from the Macedonian Scientific Institute, Sofia
(re: Your interview of 23 July 1997)
Mr. President,
Not long ago, the Macedonian Bulgarians living in the USA, Canada and
Australia, as well as those in Germany, addressed You with an Open
Letter on the occasion of Your interview of 23 July 1997. In our
capacity of Macedonian Bulgarians and members of the Macedonian
Scientific Institute - academicians, corresponding members,
professors, assistant professors, research associates, and public
figures, we would also like to express our attitude to the problems
treated by You in the interview.
We are pleased with the fact that You recognized a number of facts
considering the Republic of Macedonia and the relations between our
1. This was the first time You have declared before the world that the
process of "de-Bulgarization" in the Republic of Macedonia has been
completed "with the exception of some persons and one or two parties".
That statement of Yours confirms the historic truth that, until 1944,
the Slavonic population of the Republic of Macedonia has been a
Bulgarian one. Furthermore, in this way You supported the statement
made by President Petar Stoyanov in Strasbourg - that "Macedonian
history is a part of Bulgarian history, and one of its most romantic
parts - the struggle of the Christian population against the
enslavers".
2. You pointed out that the pro-Bulgarian attitudes in the Republic of
Macedonia were a "standing problem" for You. This, Mr. President, is
true only regarding the period since 1944. It is well known that the
population of Macedonia has always legitimized itself as being
Bulgarian, which is testified by the Ottoman archives, the diplomatic
correspondence of the foreign consuls, foreign observers, travellers,
eminent scientists, military people, and others who had worked in the
historical-geographic region on Macedonia, as well as by the written
documents left by the most prominent figures of the National Revival
period - Father Paissiy, Neophyte Rilski, Grigor Parlichev, the
Miladinov brothers, Jordan Hadjikonstantinov (Djinot), Kouzman
Shapkarev, Rayko Zhinzifof, etc.; the national revolutionaries Damyan
Grouev, Gotse Delchev, Pere Toshev, Todor Alexandrov, Ivan Mihaylov;
the builders of our state - M. Andonov (Chento), P. Shatev, V.
Markovski, etc.
3. You finally found the courage to confirm a statement we have made a
number of times, namely that "the recognition of a state, and not of a
language or a nation, is a matter of international law". This is
exactly the truth, Mr. President, for the state is a political, i. e.
legal category, which is subject to recognition or non-recognition,
while the language and the nation are scientific categories which are
not subject to recognition. The policy of the Serbo-Communists in the
Republic of Macedonia towards legitimizing the Comintern decision of
1934 for creation a "Macedonian nation" and a "Macedonian language"
have led to the present situation, i. e. search for a political
decision of the problem. The recent statement of the Greek President,
Mr. Kostas Stefanopoulos, cited by the "New Macedonia" newspaper, that
"the Macedonians are Bulgarians and their language is a fabrication"
confirm indisputably in another way the historical truth.
4. You are right, Mr. President, in stating that the language dispute
is "a domestic problem of your own". The Macedonian Serbo-Communists
have "conjured up" that language which, according to the "Focus"
newspaper, is spoken by less than a half of the people of the Republic
of Macedonia. Therefore, we dare ask you: since this is a domestic
problem of yours, why is Your government constantly intruding it onto
us and using it to block the normal relations between our states?
However, along with the confessions made, You went on by trying to
First. You allowed Yourself to identify the Republic of Macedonia with
the whole historical-geographical region of Macedonia, as well as to
appear as a spokesman for its entire population. Yet you neglected the
fact, Mr. President, that the region in question belongs to three
independent states - the republics of Macedonia, Greece and Bulgaria.
Your behaviour gives us the reason to assume that You are expressing
explicit territorial claims which is an anachronism for the present
day.
You declared Yourself a spokesman for the population of the three
areas of Macedonia. We have the right to ask you: who authorized You
to do so? The events in "Mechkin Kamen" on the occasion of the Ilinden
Uprising allows us to doubt Your chances of being a spokesman even for
the opinion of the Republic of Macedonia.
Second. In Your interview, You once again made an attempt at proving
the existence of a "Macedonian minority" in the republics of Greece,
Albania and Bulgaria. You certainly are aware of the fact that there
is no such minority not only in Bulgaria, but also in the rest of the
countries. It is well known that the attempts made on the part of the
Bulgarian Communist Party, under the strong pressure exerted by the
Comuntern and Tito's Yugoslavia, to Macedonize the Bulgarian
population in the Pirin region in 1946-47 were a complete failure.
Nowadays, the successors of that Party - Bulgarian socialists - came
out with a declaration which confessed and condemned the attempts at a
de-Bulgarization made by their predecessors, since these were strongly
urged from foreign powers and against the will of the people from the
region. Not long ago, the former Albanian President, Mr. Sali Berisha
declared that about 150-200 thousand Bulgarians are living in his
country. The International Kelsinki Committee, as well as the American
newspaper "New York Times" of 1996 stated that about 150 000 Bulgarian
live in Greece. Probably You consider a minority the small group of
people who (with the financial support of the Yugoslav embassy in
Sofia and the "Koukoush-1913" joint company) established the
illegitimate organization OMO "Ilinden". Their activities confine to
their appearances on Skopje Television and in the anti-Bulgarian
loudspeaker - the newspaper "Nova Macedonia". Their slapstick actions
are a subject of ridicule and regret in Bulgaria.
Third. In Your interview, You attributed a sign of equivalence between
nationality and political regime in the Republic of Macedonia. Mr.
Gligorov, political regimes are something transitory. They come and
go, yet nationality remains. The regime of Serbo-Communism in the
Socialist Republic of Macedonia has left painful memories in the
consciousness of the population of the Republic of Macedonia. During a
period of about 50 years, about 720 trials were held, resulting in
over 200 death sentences; more than 20 000 citizens were killed
without any trial or sentence; over 150 000 were sent to prisons and
prison camps in Idrizovo, Goli Otok, etc.; another 180 000 were forced
to leave the country seeking refuge in Bulgaria and in other countries
all over the world - only because they wanted to remain Bulgarians.
That population, subjected to genocide by Your ideological adherents
and political regimes, has nothing in common with the ruling top.
Fourth. You often take unfair advantage of the "Bulgarian occupation
in Macedonia". For more than a half century you have identified the
Bulgarians with fascists. Both in the past and at present, Bulgarians,
like people all over the world, have had differing political
convictions and views.The fact that the Bulgarian people availed
themselves of the war-time situation to regain the territories torn
from it by force of the Bucharest (1913) and Neuilly (1919) treaties,
does not give You the right to use a forged terminology. Let us remind
you that before the invasion of Bulgarian troops in Vardar Macedonia,
the area already hosted Bulgarian action committees organized by the
local population, which is a historical demonstration of a national
self-identification and establishment of a local Bulgarian power.
During that period, Mr. President, the whole population greeted with
flowers, flags and church gonfalons "the occupiers", as You termed
them. Let us remind You that 70 % of the officers and 50 % of the
soldiers were born in Macedonia. They were coming back to their native
places and their relatives. That is why the population greeted them as
liberators. This is testified by the archive documentaries which are
being kept in our archives.
We would also like to remind you that, during the Bulgarian
administration of Vardar Macedonia, dozens of schools, hospitals,roads
and bridges were built; the construction of several railroads to Sofia
started; all settlements were provided with town-settlement plans,
etc. In other words, for less than 4 years Bulgaria did more than what
was done during the 26-year-long Serb occupation. Yet, never and
nowhere have You spoken out a single word against it. Our archives
keep numerous documents about the active involvement of the young
people of Vardar Macedonia in the social-political and cultural life.
Fifth. In the same interview, You rejoiced that it is the great
advantage of the Republic of Macedonia and the "Macedonian language"
that they avail of their own alphabet. Why are You unable, Mr.
President, to tell the truth that this is not a Macedonian but a
Serbian alphabet. Why did not You tell that it was made up by order of
Tito, Djilas, Tempo and Kolishevski by special orthographic
commissions (27 November - 3 December 1944)? Those commissions
rejected the Bulgarian alphabet which had been used till 1913 by the
Bulgarians throughout Macedonia, in 1373 schools and 13 high schools,
by 2266 teachers and over 100 000 students. that was the alphabet used
by all figures of the National Revival period, led by Dame Grouev,
Gotse Delchev, Todor Alexandrov, etc. The Serbian alphabet which was
introduced by the Serbs in 1913 and legitimized in 1944 infringed on
the eleven-century-long all-Bulgarian cultural tradition started by
Cyril and Methodius and their disciples Kliment and Naoum.
Mr. President, once upon a time, our great poet Ivan Vazov, who is of
Macedonian origin, used to say - "You cannot quench the unquenchable".
You and your follower would not be able, in spite of every efforts
made, to quench the Bulgarian spirit of the population of Macedonia.
You are afraid that the notion of "One people in two states" might
assert itself. You are right to do so because that is an idea which
enjoys ever greater popularity among the people from both sides of the
Rouen and Belasitsa mountains. That idea has also been a part of the
programme of the national liberation movement of the Bulgarians in
Macedonia for decades now. This is a righteous idea which has its
future.
At present, the attitude of the Republic of Bulgaria towards the
Republic of Macedonia is more than well-wishing one. Namely because of
1. Was the first country in the world to recognize Your state.
2. Helped you save your economy from a crash (without any signed
agreements) and during the double economic embargo.
3. Did not consent to a division of the territory of the Republic of
Macedonia.
4. Interceded with Russia and other countries for the recognition of
Your state, and they listened to the voice of Sofia.
All this testifies to the fact that the Bulgarian state is not an
enemy of the Republic of Macedonia, and that its people are a real
brother to its people. You should not also forget that the Republic of
Bulgaria is the home for over 3 million of Macedonian Bulgarians and
their descendants who have been driven away by the Turkish, Serbian
and Macedonian authorities, i. e. over than three times more than the
Slavonic population of Macedonia. Therefore, we are not indifferent to
the fate of the Republic of Macedonia.
Mr. Gligorov, in our capacity of Bulgarians from Macedonia and as
scholars, we are well aware of the complex political heritage left by
the Serbo-Communists to the Republic of Macedonia. Yet, the brothers
from both sides of the Rouen and Belasitsa mountains, would like to
live at peace and with wide open borders, instead of in an atmosphere
of mistrust and hostility, imposed by the present government of Yours
and servicing interests alien to both the Republic of Macedonia and
the Republic of Bulgaria.
September 1997
Macedonian Scientific Institute
Sofia
Ilinden
2003-10-29 14:59:03 UTC
Permalink
RIKOHEAD SAID . todor, the number of Slavs living in the FTCOG now are under 5,000 IN ITALY THE LATINS ARE
80 MILLION, AND THE ARABS IN EGYPT ARE 75 MILLION.
Post by rikopal
todor, the number of Slavs living in Greece now are under 5,000
according to the last 3 votings plus very few of them
state themselves different ethnicity than Greek.
Post by Todor
Outgoing No 86/08 Sept. 1997
Attention: Mr. Kiro Gligorov
President of the Republic of Macedonia
Skopje
O P E N L E T T E R
from the Macedonian Scientific Institute, Sofia
(re: Your interview of 23 July 1997)
Mr. President,
Not long ago, the Macedonian Bulgarians living in the USA, Canada and
Australia, as well as those in Germany, addressed You with an Open
Letter on the occasion of Your interview of 23 July 1997. In our
capacity of Macedonian Bulgarians and members of the Macedonian
Scientific Institute - academicians, corresponding members,
professors, assistant professors, research associates, and public
figures, we would also like to express our attitude to the problems
treated by You in the interview.
We are pleased with the fact that You recognized a number of facts
considering the Republic of Macedonia and the relations between our
1. This was the first time You have declared before the world that the
process of "de-Bulgarization" in the Republic of Macedonia has been
completed "with the exception of some persons and one or two parties".
That statement of Yours confirms the historic truth that, until 1944,
the Slavonic population of the Republic of Macedonia has been a
Bulgarian one. Furthermore, in this way You supported the statement
made by President Petar Stoyanov in Strasbourg - that "Macedonian
history is a part of Bulgarian history, and one of its most romantic
parts - the struggle of the Christian population against the
enslavers".
2. You pointed out that the pro-Bulgarian attitudes in the Republic of
Macedonia were a "standing problem" for You. This, Mr. President, is
true only regarding the period since 1944. It is well known that the
population of Macedonia has always legitimized itself as being
Bulgarian, which is testified by the Ottoman archives, the diplomatic
correspondence of the foreign consuls, foreign observers, travellers,
eminent scientists, military people, and others who had worked in the
historical-geographic region on Macedonia, as well as by the written
documents left by the most prominent figures of the National Revival
period - Father Paissiy, Neophyte Rilski, Grigor Parlichev, the
Miladinov brothers, Jordan Hadjikonstantinov (Djinot), Kouzman
Shapkarev, Rayko Zhinzifof, etc.; the national revolutionaries Damyan
Grouev, Gotse Delchev, Pere Toshev, Todor Alexandrov, Ivan Mihaylov;
the builders of our state - M. Andonov (Chento), P. Shatev, V.
Markovski, etc.
3. You finally found the courage to confirm a statement we have made a
number of times, namely that "the recognition of a state, and not of a
language or a nation, is a matter of international law". This is
exactly the truth, Mr. President, for the state is a political, i. e.
legal category, which is subject to recognition or non-recognition,
while the language and the nation are scientific categories which are
not subject to recognition. The policy of the Serbo-Communists in the
Republic of Macedonia towards legitimizing the Comintern decision of
1934 for creation a "Macedonian nation" and a "Macedonian language"
have led to the present situation, i. e. search for a political
decision of the problem. The recent statement of the Greek President,
Mr. Kostas Stefanopoulos, cited by the "New Macedonia" newspaper, that
"the Macedonians are Bulgarians and their language is a fabrication"
confirm indisputably in another way the historical truth.
4. You are right, Mr. President, in stating that the language dispute
is "a domestic problem of your own". The Macedonian Serbo-Communists
have "conjured up" that language which, according to the "Focus"
newspaper, is spoken by less than a half of the people of the Republic
of Macedonia. Therefore, we dare ask you: since this is a domestic
problem of yours, why is Your government constantly intruding it onto
us and using it to block the normal relations between our states?
However, along with the confessions made, You went on by trying to
First. You allowed Yourself to identify the Republic of Macedonia with
the whole historical-geographical region of Macedonia, as well as to
appear as a spokesman for its entire population. Yet you neglected the
fact, Mr. President, that the region in question belongs to three
independent states - the republics of Macedonia, Greece and Bulgaria.
Your behaviour gives us the reason to assume that You are expressing
explicit territorial claims which is an anachronism for the present
day.
You declared Yourself a spokesman for the population of the three
areas of Macedonia. We have the right to ask you: who authorized You
to do so? The events in "Mechkin Kamen" on the occasion of the Ilinden
Uprising allows us to doubt Your chances of being a spokesman even for
the opinion of the Republic of Macedonia.
Second. In Your interview, You once again made an attempt at proving
the existence of a "Macedonian minority" in the republics of Greece,
Albania and Bulgaria. You certainly are aware of the fact that there
is no such minority not only in Bulgaria, but also in the rest of the
countries. It is well known that the attempts made on the part of the
Bulgarian Communist Party, under the strong pressure exerted by the
Comuntern and Tito's Yugoslavia, to Macedonize the Bulgarian
population in the Pirin region in 1946-47 were a complete failure.
Nowadays, the successors of that Party - Bulgarian socialists - came
out with a declaration which confessed and condemned the attempts at a
de-Bulgarization made by their predecessors, since these were strongly
urged from foreign powers and against the will of the people from the
region. Not long ago, the former Albanian President, Mr. Sali Berisha
declared that about 150-200 thousand Bulgarians are living in his
country. The International Kelsinki Committee, as well as the American
newspaper "New York Times" of 1996 stated that about 150 000 Bulgarian
live in Greece. Probably You consider a minority the small group of
people who (with the financial support of the Yugoslav embassy in
Sofia and the "Koukoush-1913" joint company) established the
illegitimate organization OMO "Ilinden". Their activities confine to
their appearances on Skopje Television and in the anti-Bulgarian
loudspeaker - the newspaper "Nova Macedonia". Their slapstick actions
are a subject of ridicule and regret in Bulgaria.
Third. In Your interview, You attributed a sign of equivalence between
nationality and political regime in the Republic of Macedonia. Mr.
Gligorov, political regimes are something transitory. They come and
go, yet nationality remains. The regime of Serbo-Communism in the
Socialist Republic of Macedonia has left painful memories in the
consciousness of the population of the Republic of Macedonia. During a
period of about 50 years, about 720 trials were held, resulting in
over 200 death sentences; more than 20 000 citizens were killed
without any trial or sentence; over 150 000 were sent to prisons and
prison camps in Idrizovo, Goli Otok, etc.; another 180 000 were forced
to leave the country seeking refuge in Bulgaria and in other countries
all over the world - only because they wanted to remain Bulgarians.
That population, subjected to genocide by Your ideological adherents
and political regimes, has nothing in common with the ruling top.
Fourth. You often take unfair advantage of the "Bulgarian occupation
in Macedonia". For more than a half century you have identified the
Bulgarians with fascists. Both in the past and at present, Bulgarians,
like people all over the world, have had differing political
convictions and views.The fact that the Bulgarian people availed
themselves of the war-time situation to regain the territories torn
from it by force of the Bucharest (1913) and Neuilly (1919) treaties,
does not give You the right to use a forged terminology. Let us remind
you that before the invasion of Bulgarian troops in Vardar Macedonia,
the area already hosted Bulgarian action committees organized by the
local population, which is a historical demonstration of a national
self-identification and establishment of a local Bulgarian power.
During that period, Mr. President, the whole population greeted with
flowers, flags and church gonfalons "the occupiers", as You termed
them. Let us remind You that 70 % of the officers and 50 % of the
soldiers were born in Macedonia. They were coming back to their native
places and their relatives. That is why the population greeted them as
liberators. This is testified by the archive documentaries which are
being kept in our archives.
We would also like to remind you that, during the Bulgarian
administration of Vardar Macedonia, dozens of schools, hospitals,roads
and bridges were built; the construction of several railroads to Sofia
started; all settlements were provided with town-settlement plans,
etc. In other words, for less than 4 years Bulgaria did more than what
was done during the 26-year-long Serb occupation. Yet, never and
nowhere have You spoken out a single word against it. Our archives
keep numerous documents about the active involvement of the young
people of Vardar Macedonia in the social-political and cultural life.
Fifth. In the same interview, You rejoiced that it is the great
advantage of the Republic of Macedonia and the "Macedonian language"
that they avail of their own alphabet. Why are You unable, Mr.
President, to tell the truth that this is not a Macedonian but a
Serbian alphabet. Why did not You tell that it was made up by order of
Tito, Djilas, Tempo and Kolishevski by special orthographic
commissions (27 November - 3 December 1944)? Those commissions
rejected the Bulgarian alphabet which had been used till 1913 by the
Bulgarians throughout Macedonia, in 1373 schools and 13 high schools,
by 2266 teachers and over 100 000 students. that was the alphabet used
by all figures of the National Revival period, led by Dame Grouev,
Gotse Delchev, Todor Alexandrov, etc. The Serbian alphabet which was
introduced by the Serbs in 1913 and legitimized in 1944 infringed on
the eleven-century-long all-Bulgarian cultural tradition started by
Cyril and Methodius and their disciples Kliment and Naoum.
Mr. President, once upon a time, our great poet Ivan Vazov, who is of
Macedonian origin, used to say - "You cannot quench the unquenchable".
You and your follower would not be able, in spite of every efforts
made, to quench the Bulgarian spirit of the population of Macedonia.
You are afraid that the notion of "One people in two states" might
assert itself. You are right to do so because that is an idea which
enjoys ever greater popularity among the people from both sides of the
Rouen and Belasitsa mountains. That idea has also been a part of the
programme of the national liberation movement of the Bulgarians in
Macedonia for decades now. This is a righteous idea which has its
future.
At present, the attitude of the Republic of Bulgaria towards the
Republic of Macedonia is more than well-wishing one. Namely because of
1. Was the first country in the world to recognize Your state.
2. Helped you save your economy from a crash (without any signed
agreements) and during the double economic embargo.
3. Did not consent to a division of the territory of the Republic of
Macedonia.
4. Interceded with Russia and other countries for the recognition of
Your state, and they listened to the voice of Sofia.
All this testifies to the fact that the Bulgarian state is not an
enemy of the Republic of Macedonia, and that its people are a real
brother to its people. You should not also forget that the Republic of
Bulgaria is the home for over 3 million of Macedonian Bulgarians and
their descendants who have been driven away by the Turkish, Serbian
and Macedonian authorities, i. e. over than three times more than the
Slavonic population of Macedonia. Therefore, we are not indifferent to
the fate of the Republic of Macedonia.
Mr. Gligorov, in our capacity of Bulgarians from Macedonia and as
scholars, we are well aware of the complex political heritage left by
the Serbo-Communists to the Republic of Macedonia. Yet, the brothers
from both sides of the Rouen and Belasitsa mountains, would like to
live at peace and with wide open borders, instead of in an atmosphere
of mistrust and hostility, imposed by the present government of Yours
and servicing interests alien to both the Republic of Macedonia and
the Republic of Bulgaria.
September 1997
Macedonian Scientific Institute
Sofia
rikopal
2003-11-03 13:38:24 UTC
Permalink
You started the same bullshit Tito's puppet??
Post by Ilinden
RIKOHEAD SAID . todor, the number of Slavs living in the FTCOG now are
under 5,000 IN ITALY THE LATINS ARE
Post by Ilinden
80 MILLION, AND THE ARABS IN EGYPT ARE 75 MILLION.
Post by rikopal
todor, the number of Slavs living in Greece now are under 5,000
according to the last 3 votings plus very few of them
state themselves different ethnicity than Greek.
Post by Todor
Outgoing No 86/08 Sept. 1997
Attention: Mr. Kiro Gligorov
President of the Republic of Macedonia
Skopje
O P E N L E T T E R
from the Macedonian Scientific Institute, Sofia
(re: Your interview of 23 July 1997)
Mr. President,
Not long ago, the Macedonian Bulgarians living in the USA, Canada and
Australia, as well as those in Germany, addressed You with an Open
Letter on the occasion of Your interview of 23 July 1997. In our
capacity of Macedonian Bulgarians and members of the Macedonian
Scientific Institute - academicians, corresponding members,
professors, assistant professors, research associates, and public
figures, we would also like to express our attitude to the problems
treated by You in the interview.
We are pleased with the fact that You recognized a number of facts
considering the Republic of Macedonia and the relations between our
1. This was the first time You have declared before the world that the
process of "de-Bulgarization" in the Republic of Macedonia has been
completed "with the exception of some persons and one or two parties".
That statement of Yours confirms the historic truth that, until 1944,
the Slavonic population of the Republic of Macedonia has been a
Bulgarian one. Furthermore, in this way You supported the statement
made by President Petar Stoyanov in Strasbourg - that "Macedonian
history is a part of Bulgarian history, and one of its most romantic
parts - the struggle of the Christian population against the
enslavers".
2. You pointed out that the pro-Bulgarian attitudes in the Republic of
Macedonia were a "standing problem" for You. This, Mr. President, is
true only regarding the period since 1944. It is well known that the
population of Macedonia has always legitimized itself as being
Bulgarian, which is testified by the Ottoman archives, the diplomatic
correspondence of the foreign consuls, foreign observers, travellers,
eminent scientists, military people, and others who had worked in the
historical-geographic region on Macedonia, as well as by the written
documents left by the most prominent figures of the National Revival
period - Father Paissiy, Neophyte Rilski, Grigor Parlichev, the
Miladinov brothers, Jordan Hadjikonstantinov (Djinot), Kouzman
Shapkarev, Rayko Zhinzifof, etc.; the national revolutionaries Damyan
Grouev, Gotse Delchev, Pere Toshev, Todor Alexandrov, Ivan Mihaylov;
the builders of our state - M. Andonov (Chento), P. Shatev, V.
Markovski, etc.
3. You finally found the courage to confirm a statement we have made a
number of times, namely that "the recognition of a state, and not of a
language or a nation, is a matter of international law". This is
exactly the truth, Mr. President, for the state is a political, i. e.
legal category, which is subject to recognition or non-recognition,
while the language and the nation are scientific categories which are
not subject to recognition. The policy of the Serbo-Communists in the
Republic of Macedonia towards legitimizing the Comintern decision of
1934 for creation a "Macedonian nation" and a "Macedonian language"
have led to the present situation, i. e. search for a political
decision of the problem. The recent statement of the Greek President,
Mr. Kostas Stefanopoulos, cited by the "New Macedonia" newspaper, that
"the Macedonians are Bulgarians and their language is a fabrication"
confirm indisputably in another way the historical truth.
4. You are right, Mr. President, in stating that the language dispute
is "a domestic problem of your own". The Macedonian Serbo-Communists
have "conjured up" that language which, according to the "Focus"
newspaper, is spoken by less than a half of the people of the Republic
of Macedonia. Therefore, we dare ask you: since this is a domestic
problem of yours, why is Your government constantly intruding it onto
us and using it to block the normal relations between our states?
However, along with the confessions made, You went on by trying to
First. You allowed Yourself to identify the Republic of Macedonia with
the whole historical-geographical region of Macedonia, as well as to
appear as a spokesman for its entire population. Yet you neglected the
fact, Mr. President, that the region in question belongs to three
independent states - the republics of Macedonia, Greece and Bulgaria.
Your behaviour gives us the reason to assume that You are expressing
explicit territorial claims which is an anachronism for the present
day.
You declared Yourself a spokesman for the population of the three
areas of Macedonia. We have the right to ask you: who authorized You
to do so? The events in "Mechkin Kamen" on the occasion of the Ilinden
Uprising allows us to doubt Your chances of being a spokesman even for
the opinion of the Republic of Macedonia.
Second. In Your interview, You once again made an attempt at proving
the existence of a "Macedonian minority" in the republics of Greece,
Albania and Bulgaria. You certainly are aware of the fact that there
is no such minority not only in Bulgaria, but also in the rest of the
countries. It is well known that the attempts made on the part of the
Bulgarian Communist Party, under the strong pressure exerted by the
Comuntern and Tito's Yugoslavia, to Macedonize the Bulgarian
population in the Pirin region in 1946-47 were a complete failure.
Nowadays, the successors of that Party - Bulgarian socialists - came
out with a declaration which confessed and condemned the attempts at a
de-Bulgarization made by their predecessors, since these were strongly
urged from foreign powers and against the will of the people from the
region. Not long ago, the former Albanian President, Mr. Sali Berisha
declared that about 150-200 thousand Bulgarians are living in his
country. The International Kelsinki Committee, as well as the American
newspaper "New York Times" of 1996 stated that about 150 000 Bulgarian
live in Greece. Probably You consider a minority the small group of
people who (with the financial support of the Yugoslav embassy in
Sofia and the "Koukoush-1913" joint company) established the
illegitimate organization OMO "Ilinden". Their activities confine to
their appearances on Skopje Television and in the anti-Bulgarian
loudspeaker - the newspaper "Nova Macedonia". Their slapstick actions
are a subject of ridicule and regret in Bulgaria.
Third. In Your interview, You attributed a sign of equivalence between
nationality and political regime in the Republic of Macedonia. Mr.
Gligorov, political regimes are something transitory. They come and
go, yet nationality remains. The regime of Serbo-Communism in the
Socialist Republic of Macedonia has left painful memories in the
consciousness of the population of the Republic of Macedonia. During a
period of about 50 years, about 720 trials were held, resulting in
over 200 death sentences; more than 20 000 citizens were killed
without any trial or sentence; over 150 000 were sent to prisons and
prison camps in Idrizovo, Goli Otok, etc.; another 180 000 were forced
to leave the country seeking refuge in Bulgaria and in other countries
all over the world - only because they wanted to remain Bulgarians.
That population, subjected to genocide by Your ideological adherents
and political regimes, has nothing in common with the ruling top.
Fourth. You often take unfair advantage of the "Bulgarian occupation
in Macedonia". For more than a half century you have identified the
Bulgarians with fascists. Both in the past and at present, Bulgarians,
like people all over the world, have had differing political
convictions and views.The fact that the Bulgarian people availed
themselves of the war-time situation to regain the territories torn
from it by force of the Bucharest (1913) and Neuilly (1919) treaties,
does not give You the right to use a forged terminology. Let us remind
you that before the invasion of Bulgarian troops in Vardar Macedonia,
the area already hosted Bulgarian action committees organized by the
local population, which is a historical demonstration of a national
self-identification and establishment of a local Bulgarian power.
During that period, Mr. President, the whole population greeted with
flowers, flags and church gonfalons "the occupiers", as You termed
them. Let us remind You that 70 % of the officers and 50 % of the
soldiers were born in Macedonia. They were coming back to their native
places and their relatives. That is why the population greeted them as
liberators. This is testified by the archive documentaries which are
being kept in our archives.
We would also like to remind you that, during the Bulgarian
administration of Vardar Macedonia, dozens of schools, hospitals,roads
and bridges were built; the construction of several railroads to Sofia
started; all settlements were provided with town-settlement plans,
etc. In other words, for less than 4 years Bulgaria did more than what
was done during the 26-year-long Serb occupation. Yet, never and
nowhere have You spoken out a single word against it. Our archives
keep numerous documents about the active involvement of the young
people of Vardar Macedonia in the social-political and cultural life.
Fifth. In the same interview, You rejoiced that it is the great
advantage of the Republic of Macedonia and the "Macedonian language"
that they avail of their own alphabet. Why are You unable, Mr.
President, to tell the truth that this is not a Macedonian but a
Serbian alphabet. Why did not You tell that it was made up by order of
Tito, Djilas, Tempo and Kolishevski by special orthographic
commissions (27 November - 3 December 1944)? Those commissions
rejected the Bulgarian alphabet which had been used till 1913 by the
Bulgarians throughout Macedonia, in 1373 schools and 13 high schools,
by 2266 teachers and over 100 000 students. that was the alphabet used
by all figures of the National Revival period, led by Dame Grouev,
Gotse Delchev, Todor Alexandrov, etc. The Serbian alphabet which was
introduced by the Serbs in 1913 and legitimized in 1944 infringed on
the eleven-century-long all-Bulgarian cultural tradition started by
Cyril and Methodius and their disciples Kliment and Naoum.
Mr. President, once upon a time, our great poet Ivan Vazov, who is of
Macedonian origin, used to say - "You cannot quench the unquenchable".
You and your follower would not be able, in spite of every efforts
made, to quench the Bulgarian spirit of the population of Macedonia.
You are afraid that the notion of "One people in two states" might
assert itself. You are right to do so because that is an idea which
enjoys ever greater popularity among the people from both sides of the
Rouen and Belasitsa mountains. That idea has also been a part of the
programme of the national liberation movement of the Bulgarians in
Macedonia for decades now. This is a righteous idea which has its
future.
At present, the attitude of the Republic of Bulgaria towards the
Republic of Macedonia is more than well-wishing one. Namely because of
1. Was the first country in the world to recognize Your state.
2. Helped you save your economy from a crash (without any signed
agreements) and during the double economic embargo.
3. Did not consent to a division of the territory of the Republic of
Macedonia.
4. Interceded with Russia and other countries for the recognition of
Your state, and they listened to the voice of Sofia.
All this testifies to the fact that the Bulgarian state is not an
enemy of the Republic of Macedonia, and that its people are a real
brother to its people. You should not also forget that the Republic of
Bulgaria is the home for over 3 million of Macedonian Bulgarians and
their descendants who have been driven away by the Turkish, Serbian
and Macedonian authorities, i. e. over than three times more than the
Slavonic population of Macedonia. Therefore, we are not indifferent to
the fate of the Republic of Macedonia.
Mr. Gligorov, in our capacity of Bulgarians from Macedonia and as
scholars, we are well aware of the complex political heritage left by
the Serbo-Communists to the Republic of Macedonia. Yet, the brothers
from both sides of the Rouen and Belasitsa mountains, would like to
live at peace and with wide open borders, instead of in an atmosphere
of mistrust and hostility, imposed by the present government of Yours
and servicing interests alien to both the Republic of Macedonia and
the Republic of Bulgaria.
September 1997
Macedonian Scientific Institute
Sofia
WolfWolf
2003-11-03 19:40:21 UTC
Permalink
Given the fact that there are about 120,000 ethnic Macedonians living in Northern
Greece, there must be something wrong with the Greek voting system.
The Council of Europe is ready to send some observers for the 2004 parliamentary
elections in Greece. Their best experts are Turks.

WolfWolf
The European
Post by rikopal
You started the same bullshit Tito's puppet??
Post by Ilinden
RIKOHEAD SAID . todor, the number of Slavs living in the FTCOG now are
under 5,000 IN ITALY THE LATINS ARE
Post by Ilinden
80 MILLION, AND THE ARABS IN EGYPT ARE 75 MILLION.
Post by rikopal
todor, the number of Slavs living in Greece now are under 5,000
according to the last 3 votings plus very few of them
state themselves different ethnicity than Greek.
Post by Todor
Outgoing No 86/08 Sept. 1997
Attention: Mr. Kiro Gligorov
President of the Republic of Macedonia
Skopje
O P E N L E T T E R
from the Macedonian Scientific Institute, Sofia
(re: Your interview of 23 July 1997)
Mr. President,
Not long ago, the Macedonian Bulgarians living in the USA, Canada and
Australia, as well as those in Germany, addressed You with an Open
Letter on the occasion of Your interview of 23 July 1997. In our
capacity of Macedonian Bulgarians and members of the Macedonian
Scientific Institute - academicians, corresponding members,
professors, assistant professors, research associates, and public
figures, we would also like to express our attitude to the problems
treated by You in the interview.
We are pleased with the fact that You recognized a number of facts
considering the Republic of Macedonia and the relations between our
1. This was the first time You have declared before the world that the
process of "de-Bulgarization" in the Republic of Macedonia has been
completed "with the exception of some persons and one or two parties".
That statement of Yours confirms the historic truth that, until 1944,
the Slavonic population of the Republic of Macedonia has been a
Bulgarian one. Furthermore, in this way You supported the statement
made by President Petar Stoyanov in Strasbourg - that "Macedonian
history is a part of Bulgarian history, and one of its most romantic
parts - the struggle of the Christian population against the
enslavers".
2. You pointed out that the pro-Bulgarian attitudes in the Republic of
Macedonia were a "standing problem" for You. This, Mr. President, is
true only regarding the period since 1944. It is well known that the
population of Macedonia has always legitimized itself as being
Bulgarian, which is testified by the Ottoman archives, the diplomatic
correspondence of the foreign consuls, foreign observers, travellers,
eminent scientists, military people, and others who had worked in the
historical-geographic region on Macedonia, as well as by the written
documents left by the most prominent figures of the National Revival
period - Father Paissiy, Neophyte Rilski, Grigor Parlichev, the
Miladinov brothers, Jordan Hadjikonstantinov (Djinot), Kouzman
Shapkarev, Rayko Zhinzifof, etc.; the national revolutionaries Damyan
Grouev, Gotse Delchev, Pere Toshev, Todor Alexandrov, Ivan Mihaylov;
the builders of our state - M. Andonov (Chento), P. Shatev, V.
Markovski, etc.
3. You finally found the courage to confirm a statement we have made a
number of times, namely that "the recognition of a state, and not of a
language or a nation, is a matter of international law". This is
exactly the truth, Mr. President, for the state is a political, i. e.
legal category, which is subject to recognition or non-recognition,
while the language and the nation are scientific categories which are
not subject to recognition. The policy of the Serbo-Communists in the
Republic of Macedonia towards legitimizing the Comintern decision of
1934 for creation a "Macedonian nation" and a "Macedonian language"
have led to the present situation, i. e. search for a political
decision of the problem. The recent statement of the Greek President,
Mr. Kostas Stefanopoulos, cited by the "New Macedonia" newspaper, that
"the Macedonians are Bulgarians and their language is a fabrication"
confirm indisputably in another way the historical truth.
4. You are right, Mr. President, in stating that the language dispute
is "a domestic problem of your own". The Macedonian Serbo-Communists
have "conjured up" that language which, according to the "Focus"
newspaper, is spoken by less than a half of the people of the Republic
of Macedonia. Therefore, we dare ask you: since this is a domestic
problem of yours, why is Your government constantly intruding it onto
us and using it to block the normal relations between our states?
However, along with the confessions made, You went on by trying to
First. You allowed Yourself to identify the Republic of Macedonia with
the whole historical-geographical region of Macedonia, as well as to
appear as a spokesman for its entire population. Yet you neglected the
fact, Mr. President, that the region in question belongs to three
independent states - the republics of Macedonia, Greece and Bulgaria.
Your behaviour gives us the reason to assume that You are expressing
explicit territorial claims which is an anachronism for the present
day.
You declared Yourself a spokesman for the population of the three
areas of Macedonia. We have the right to ask you: who authorized You
to do so? The events in "Mechkin Kamen" on the occasion of the Ilinden
Uprising allows us to doubt Your chances of being a spokesman even for
the opinion of the Republic of Macedonia.
Second. In Your interview, You once again made an attempt at proving
the existence of a "Macedonian minority" in the republics of Greece,
Albania and Bulgaria. You certainly are aware of the fact that there
is no such minority not only in Bulgaria, but also in the rest of the
countries. It is well known that the attempts made on the part of the
Bulgarian Communist Party, under the strong pressure exerted by the
Comuntern and Tito's Yugoslavia, to Macedonize the Bulgarian
population in the Pirin region in 1946-47 were a complete failure.
Nowadays, the successors of that Party - Bulgarian socialists - came
out with a declaration which confessed and condemned the attempts at a
de-Bulgarization made by their predecessors, since these were strongly
urged from foreign powers and against the will of the people from the
region. Not long ago, the former Albanian President, Mr. Sali Berisha
declared that about 150-200 thousand Bulgarians are living in his
country. The International Kelsinki Committee, as well as the American
newspaper "New York Times" of 1996 stated that about 150 000 Bulgarian
live in Greece. Probably You consider a minority the small group of
people who (with the financial support of the Yugoslav embassy in
Sofia and the "Koukoush-1913" joint company) established the
illegitimate organization OMO "Ilinden". Their activities confine to
their appearances on Skopje Television and in the anti-Bulgarian
loudspeaker - the newspaper "Nova Macedonia". Their slapstick actions
are a subject of ridicule and regret in Bulgaria.
Third. In Your interview, You attributed a sign of equivalence between
nationality and political regime in the Republic of Macedonia. Mr.
Gligorov, political regimes are something transitory. They come and
go, yet nationality remains. The regime of Serbo-Communism in the
Socialist Republic of Macedonia has left painful memories in the
consciousness of the population of the Republic of Macedonia. During a
period of about 50 years, about 720 trials were held, resulting in
over 200 death sentences; more than 20 000 citizens were killed
without any trial or sentence; over 150 000 were sent to prisons and
prison camps in Idrizovo, Goli Otok, etc.; another 180 000 were forced
to leave the country seeking refuge in Bulgaria and in other countries
all over the world - only because they wanted to remain Bulgarians.
That population, subjected to genocide by Your ideological adherents
and political regimes, has nothing in common with the ruling top.
Fourth. You often take unfair advantage of the "Bulgarian occupation
in Macedonia". For more than a half century you have identified the
Bulgarians with fascists. Both in the past and at present, Bulgarians,
like people all over the world, have had differing political
convictions and views.The fact that the Bulgarian people availed
themselves of the war-time situation to regain the territories torn
from it by force of the Bucharest (1913) and Neuilly (1919) treaties,
does not give You the right to use a forged terminology. Let us remind
you that before the invasion of Bulgarian troops in Vardar Macedonia,
the area already hosted Bulgarian action committees organized by the
local population, which is a historical demonstration of a national
self-identification and establishment of a local Bulgarian power.
During that period, Mr. President, the whole population greeted with
flowers, flags and church gonfalons "the occupiers", as You termed
them. Let us remind You that 70 % of the officers and 50 % of the
soldiers were born in Macedonia. They were coming back to their native
places and their relatives. That is why the population greeted them as
liberators. This is testified by the archive documentaries which are
being kept in our archives.
We would also like to remind you that, during the Bulgarian
administration of Vardar Macedonia, dozens of schools, hospitals,roads
and bridges were built; the construction of several railroads to Sofia
started; all settlements were provided with town-settlement plans,
etc. In other words, for less than 4 years Bulgaria did more than what
was done during the 26-year-long Serb occupation. Yet, never and
nowhere have You spoken out a single word against it. Our archives
keep numerous documents about the active involvement of the young
people of Vardar Macedonia in the social-political and cultural life.
Fifth. In the same interview, You rejoiced that it is the great
advantage of the Republic of Macedonia and the "Macedonian language"
that they avail of their own alphabet. Why are You unable, Mr.
President, to tell the truth that this is not a Macedonian but a
Serbian alphabet. Why did not You tell that it was made up by order of
Tito, Djilas, Tempo and Kolishevski by special orthographic
commissions (27 November - 3 December 1944)? Those commissions
rejected the Bulgarian alphabet which had been used till 1913 by the
Bulgarians throughout Macedonia, in 1373 schools and 13 high schools,
by 2266 teachers and over 100 000 students. that was the alphabet used
by all figures of the National Revival period, led by Dame Grouev,
Gotse Delchev, Todor Alexandrov, etc. The Serbian alphabet which was
introduced by the Serbs in 1913 and legitimized in 1944 infringed on
the eleven-century-long all-Bulgarian cultural tradition started by
Cyril and Methodius and their disciples Kliment and Naoum.
Mr. President, once upon a time, our great poet Ivan Vazov, who is of
Macedonian origin, used to say - "You cannot quench the unquenchable".
You and your follower would not be able, in spite of every efforts
made, to quench the Bulgarian spirit of the population of Macedonia.
You are afraid that the notion of "One people in two states" might
assert itself. You are right to do so because that is an idea which
enjoys ever greater popularity among the people from both sides of the
Rouen and Belasitsa mountains. That idea has also been a part of the
programme of the national liberation movement of the Bulgarians in
Macedonia for decades now. This is a righteous idea which has its
future.
At present, the attitude of the Republic of Bulgaria towards the
Republic of Macedonia is more than well-wishing one. Namely because of
1. Was the first country in the world to recognize Your state.
2. Helped you save your economy from a crash (without any signed
agreements) and during the double economic embargo.
3. Did not consent to a division of the territory of the Republic of
Macedonia.
4. Interceded with Russia and other countries for the recognition of
Your state, and they listened to the voice of Sofia.
All this testifies to the fact that the Bulgarian state is not an
enemy of the Republic of Macedonia, and that its people are a real
brother to its people. You should not also forget that the Republic of
Bulgaria is the home for over 3 million of Macedonian Bulgarians and
their descendants who have been driven away by the Turkish, Serbian
and Macedonian authorities, i. e. over than three times more than the
Slavonic population of Macedonia. Therefore, we are not indifferent to
the fate of the Republic of Macedonia.
Mr. Gligorov, in our capacity of Bulgarians from Macedonia and as
scholars, we are well aware of the complex political heritage left by
the Serbo-Communists to the Republic of Macedonia. Yet, the brothers
from both sides of the Rouen and Belasitsa mountains, would like to
live at peace and with wide open borders, instead of in an atmosphere
of mistrust and hostility, imposed by the present government of Yours
and servicing interests alien to both the Republic of Macedonia and
the Republic of Bulgaria.
September 1997
Macedonian Scientific Institute
Sofia
Nikolay
2003-10-30 23:13:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by rikopal
todor, the number of Slavs living in Greece now are under 5,000
according to the last 3 votings plus very few of them
state themselves different ethnicity than Greek.
Pomaks are also bulgarians. As well the slavofon elins.
and at last the around 100 000 economic immigrants in Greece from
Bulgaria.
Not talking about season workers.

We are far more then you expect. But we are not trying to chaneg the
borders or other things. Only chaneg of your attitude toward us.

Nikolay
rikopal
2003-10-31 10:07:07 UTC
Permalink
Pomaks are recognized by Greece as a minority from 1926
together with the other muslims.

what I was talking about were the slavophone greeks who most of them
feel greeks.There is a small part of them who still feel bulgarians
and others who fell on the net of "Rainbow".

Those are less than 5000 as the census show.

As for the immigrants it is impossible for everyone to give a number because
everyday more are passing the borders

I don't think there is an attitude towards immigrands except of the people
who think their jobs are in stake.

Let's not forget that Greeks are those who most want borderless Europe
and are great supporter of Euro.Bulgaria after all will soon join EU.

But on the other hand Greeks will never tolerate a historic fraud like
the one the Fyromians are trying to impose
Post by Nikolay
Post by rikopal
todor, the number of Slavs living in Greece now are under 5,000
according to the last 3 votings plus very few of them
state themselves different ethnicity than Greek.
Pomaks are also bulgarians. As well the slavofon elins.
and at last the around 100 000 economic immigrants in Greece from
Bulgaria.
Not talking about season workers.
We are far more then you expect. But we are not trying to chaneg the
borders or other things. Only chaneg of your attitude toward us.
Nikolay
Ilinden
2003-10-31 13:32:50 UTC
Permalink
The Ftcogians are the nitwits with you bre Rikohead prodadena dusha. . How about human rights in Mala
Prespa, Pirin and Aegean Macedonia for the Macedonians leaving there.
Ilinden the Macedonian
Post by rikopal
Pomaks are recognized by Greece as a minority from 1926
together with the other muslims.
what I was talking about were the slavophone greeks who most of them
feel greeks.There is a small part of them who still feel bulgarians
and others who fell on the net of "Rainbow".
Those are less than 5000 as the census show.
As for the immigrants it is impossible for everyone to give a number because
everyday more are passing the borders
I don't think there is an attitude towards immigrands except of the people
who think their jobs are in stake.
Let's not forget that Greeks are those who most want borderless Europe
and are great supporter of Euro.Bulgaria after all will soon join EU.
But on the other hand Greeks will never tolerate a historic fraud like
the one the Fyromians are trying to impose
Post by Nikolay
Post by rikopal
todor, the number of Slavs living in Greece now are under 5,000
according to the last 3 votings plus very few of them
state themselves different ethnicity than Greek.
Pomaks are also bulgarians. As well the slavofon elins.
and at last the around 100 000 economic immigrants in Greece from
Bulgaria.
Not talking about season workers.
We are far more then you expect. But we are not trying to chaneg the
borders or other things. Only chaneg of your attitude toward us.
Nikolay
WolfWolf
2003-10-31 14:35:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by rikopal
Pomaks are recognized by Greece as a minority from 1926
together with the other muslims.
Of course you know that you're lying through your three teeth, rikohead.
Ethnic Pomaks, like ethnic Turks and ethnic Macedonians, are NOT allowed by Greece to
define themselves as such.
Post by rikopal
Those are less than 5000 as the census show.
Which census, rikohead?
A state of law differentiates clearly between a census of the population, where the
data are open to the public, and an election, where the data are kept under the
secrecy of the electoral law.
Post by rikopal
As for the immigrants it is impossible for everyone to give a number because
everyday more are passing the borders
Hmmm ... do you imply that Greece has no control over her borders?!?
That would mean that Greece isn't qualified for the Schengen system, which would be
really funny.
Post by rikopal
I don't think there is an attitude towards immigrands except of the people
who think their jobs are in stake.
Eurobarometer surveys give a different picture, rikohead.
They consistently show that Greece has the highest levels of xeniphobia in the EU.
Post by rikopal
Let's not forget that Greeks are those who most want borderless Europe
and are great supporter of Euro.Bulgaria after all will soon join EU.
So how come that Greece is the only Schengen state with no open terrestrial border
around her?!?
Crossing from the Kingdom of Norway (a non-Schengen state) to the Kingdom of Sweden (a
Schengen state) is smoothless and without any control.
Crossing from the Republic of Macedonia to the Republic of Greece is painful and
difficult, sometimes even impossible.
Post by rikopal
But on the other hand Greeks will never tolerate a historic fraud
Fine, does this mean that Greece is finally giving up her inconsistent stance towards
her northern neighbour, recognizing its inhabitants as Macedonians as every other
nation does?!?

Your obtuse answer ...

WolfWolf
The European
Post by rikopal
Post by Nikolay
Post by rikopal
todor, the number of Slavs living in Greece now are under 5,000
according to the last 3 votings plus very few of them
state themselves different ethnicity than Greek.
Pomaks are also bulgarians. As well the slavofon elins.
and at last the around 100 000 economic immigrants in Greece from
Bulgaria.
Not talking about season workers.
We are far more then you expect. But we are not trying to chaneg the
borders or other things. Only chaneg of your attitude toward us.
Nikolay
Nikolay
2003-10-31 23:59:23 UTC
Permalink
With this <pomaks> minority - you gonna create one more nation on the
Balkans.
They may decide they are the 'true' aheians or Trakians. Then you
gonna fight one more 'deluded' nation?

You know, I know - we all know - pomaks are bulgarian-mohamedans.
The slavofon greeks - may feel whatever they whant - but as we all
know they are descendents of the bulgarians.

Do not get me wrong - I am not somebody who tell peaple who they are.
If thay want to be Greeks - be my guest.
If you wanna be macedonian - be my guest.
But do not steal my history.

Nikolay
rikopal
2003-11-03 13:52:59 UTC
Permalink
Nikolay I do not disagree with you about pomaks
being bulgarians but let's forget that they are muslims
and like other muslims in Greece they are falling
to the Anchara propaganda and study for free at
the Turkish universities.

Although they have nothing to do with the turkish race
many of them put their religion ahead of ethnic identity.

About the rest I agree with you Pomaks are Bulgarian
muslims.
Post by Nikolay
With this <pomaks> minority - you gonna create one more nation on the
Balkans.
They may decide they are the 'true' aheians or Trakians. Then you
gonna fight one more 'deluded' nation?
You know, I know - we all know - pomaks are bulgarian-mohamedans.
The slavofon greeks - may feel whatever they whant - but as we all
know they are descendents of the bulgarians.
Do not get me wrong - I am not somebody who tell peaple who they are.
If thay want to be Greeks - be my guest.
If you wanna be macedonian - be my guest.
But do not steal my history.
Nikolay
WolfWolf
2003-11-03 19:35:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by rikopal
Nikolay I do not disagree with you about pomaks
being bulgarians but let's forget that they are muslims
and like other muslims in Greece they are falling
to the Anchara propaganda and study for free at
the Turkish universities.
The number of Turkish monuments in Greece was 3370 when Greece declared its
independence from the Ottoman administration in 1821.
According to statistics, 2336 of these were mosques and mesjids. Today there are only
four mosques left in Athens and these remain closed and desecrated.

WolfWolf
The European
Post by rikopal
Post by Nikolay
With this <pomaks> minority - you gonna create one more nation on the
Balkans.
They may decide they are the 'true' aheians or Trakians. Then you
gonna fight one more 'deluded' nation?
You know, I know - we all know - pomaks are bulgarian-mohamedans.
The slavofon greeks - may feel whatever they whant - but as we all
know they are descendents of the bulgarians.
Do not get me wrong - I am not somebody who tell peaple who they are.
If thay want to be Greeks - be my guest.
If you wanna be macedonian - be my guest.
But do not steal my history.
Nikolay
Yannis the Makedonian
2003-11-03 20:31:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by WolfWolf
The number of Turkish monuments in Greece was 3370 when Greece declared its
independence from the Ottoman administration in 1821.
According to statistics, 2336 of these were mosques and mesjids. Today there are only
four mosques left in Athens and these remain closed and desecrated.
WolfWolf
The Vlakas
Vre aisixtir, Vlaka !!
How many churches did you destroy before and after Greek Independance?
Yannis
Macedonia, Greece
WolfWolf
2003-11-03 20:41:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by WolfWolf
Post by WolfWolf
The number of Turkish monuments in Greece was 3370 when Greece declared
its
Post by WolfWolf
independence from the Ottoman administration in 1821.
According to statistics, 2336 of these were mosques and mesjids. Today
there are only
Post by WolfWolf
four mosques left in Athens and these remain closed and desecrated.
WolfWolf
The European
How many churches did you destroy before and after Greek Independance?
NOT A SINGLE ONE!!
I was born much later.
Actually, there are over 40(!) churches in Istanbul alone - open and operating.
When will you open the desecrated Ottoman mosques in Athens?!?

WolfWolf
The European
Nikolay
2003-11-03 20:06:32 UTC
Permalink
That's why in Bulgaria we re-baptise them.
Anastassios Retzios
2003-11-03 21:27:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Nikolay
Do not get me wrong - I am not somebody who tell peaple who they are.
If thay want to be Greeks - be my guest.
If you wanna be macedonian - be my guest.
But do not steal my history.
Nikolay
I am afraid Nikolay that for a slavonic inhabitant of FYROM today,
wanting to be "Macedonian" means "stealing" both Greek and Bulgarian
history, if "stealing" is the correct word. As you have seen in this
board, the Bulgarian Patriarchate in Ohrid has already being remaned
"Macedonian" by all of our "Macedonis" friends, even if the term was
unknown at that time.

Unfortunately, appropriation of history is inevitable by the very
founding myths of FYROM

ADR
WolfWolf
2003-11-03 21:36:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Anastassios Retzios
Post by Nikolay
Do not get me wrong - I am not somebody who tell peaple who they are.
If thay want to be Greeks - be my guest.
If you wanna be macedonian - be my guest.
But do not steal my history.
Nikolay
I am afraid Nikolay that for a slavonic inhabitant of FYROM today,
wanting to be "Macedonian" means "stealing" both Greek and Bulgarian
history, if "stealing" is the correct word.
I think it is not the correct word, Tassos.
How can you steal something which belongs to you?!?

WolfWolf
The European
Ilinden
2003-11-04 01:36:22 UTC
Permalink
Tashko the convoluted Grkoman, said his gluposti again, Rechkov do you speak Macedonian?
No answer again from Tashko.
Ilinden the Macedonian
Post by Anastassios Retzios
Post by Nikolay
Do not get me wrong - I am not somebody who tell peaple who they are.
If thay want to be Greeks - be my guest.
If you wanna be macedonian - be my guest.
But do not steal my history.
Nikolay
I am afraid Nikolay that for a slavonic inhabitant of FYROM today,
wanting to be "Macedonian" means "stealing" both Greek and Bulgarian
history, if "stealing" is the correct word. As you have seen in this
board, the Bulgarian Patriarchate in Ohrid has already being remaned
"Macedonian" by all of our "Macedonis" friends, even if the term was
unknown at that time.
Unfortunately, appropriation of history is inevitable by the very
founding myths of FYROM
ADR
Ilinden
2003-10-31 13:29:33 UTC
Permalink
And the Bul gars are Tatars.They came from Tataria, have a look at the Tatarian and Bulgar flag.Nikolay
can you please tell me your real Tatar name?



Ilinden
Post by Nikolay
Post by rikopal
todor, the number of Slavs living in Greece now are under 5,000
according to the last 3 votings plus very few of them
state themselves different ethnicity than Greek.
Pomaks are also bulgarians. As well the slavofon elins.
and at last the around 100 000 economic immigrants in Greece from
Bulgaria.
Not talking about season workers.
We are far more then you expect. But we are not trying to chaneg the
borders or other things. Only chaneg of your attitude toward us.
Nikolay
Nikolay
2003-11-02 00:23:51 UTC
Permalink
My real name?
It is Nikolay Dimitrov.
And I'm not ashamed of my Bulgarian Heritage like some other people.
If you think you offend me as putting the connection with
Vloga-Bulgars - think again.
I have nothing against any of them or Chuvash (their are even closer
to the proto-Bulgars) and tell me why don't you call me 'Chuvash'?
It is also name of the part of proto-Bulgarians.

I'm not a proto-Bulgarian. I'm Slaviano-Bulgarian.
And have nothing in common with Tatars (as any well aware man knows -
this is not a name of nation or tribe - it is a name of the
non-Mongolian units in Mongolian Army). As we all know the Russians
were called at one time - white Tatarian are they Mongolians too?

Nikolay
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