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Ancient Macedonian Language - Odisej Belcevski Article
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2004-11-28 04:54:03 UTC
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Classical Mythology explained with the use of Macedonian vocabulary

A series of studies in European mythology



by Odisej Belchevsky



http://www.maknews.com/html/articles/belchevsky/belchevsky_practical_mythology1.html




Part 1 - Is there a practical meaning to mythology?



The information contained in this article is not of mythical or imagined
content but is very real, which the reader should find exciting and
interesting.



In this article I will take the reader through a fresh new look at
Classical Mythology and bring out the true meaning of the identities of
Demeter, Saturn, Pluto/Hades and Zemele.



An inquiring mind may ask the following questions:



How is it that for the last 200 years European scholars have been able
to attribute mathematics, physics, astronomy, government, military
strategies, natural principles and even the understanding of human
behavior to the ancient people of southern Europe and the Mediterranean
yet when it comes to interpreting mythological figures they could only
manage to provide imaginary, unrealistic, impractical, hard to
understand and confusing explanations?



Is it possible that modern scholars and scholars of the “Romantic Era”
in particular, did not have a clear understanding of the true meaning of
the names of deities in relation to the deities’ roles and functions in
nature?



I will begin my interpretation by providing the reader with a foundation
for understanding the process by which the ancient Europeans created
what we today call Classical Mythology. I will then show how the ancient
Europeans used practical methods for naming their deities and each name
such as Demeter, Pluto, Hades, Zemele, etc. had a special meaning for
them which, when interpreted properly, makes sense even today.



To conduct our interpretations properly we must seek the oldest name of
each deity and have a good knowledge of the deity’s attributes and
characteristics. It is also essential that we have a good knowledge of
the old Macedonian languages, Koine and Slavonic.

It is particularly important to know the oldest name of the gods and
goddesses because many deities have been borrowed by various cultures
and over time their names have been changed.



Over the years I have studied many details of these deities both from
linguistic and historical sources and, although many books have been
written on this subject, none can provide a simple and logical
explanation. Most often the average person searching for meaning is left
with a confusing, complicated, long, stretched out and generally
difficult explanation.



By applying my knowledge of the Macedonian language, some of its older
dialects and old Slavonic I have been able to find simpler and practical
meanings for the names of the deities which not only identify the
deities with nature but also put them in harmony with their
characteristics and attributes.



In this article I would like to offer a practical meaning for the four
deities: Demeter, Pluto, Hades and Zemele.



After establishing the meaning of the names of these four we can use the
same method to explain the meaning and role of almost all known
classical deities. We must also keep in mind that some names and their
meanings have evolved over the years.



If we were to study the ancient societies from about 1500 to 500 B.C. we
would find that their world was a world of agriculture. Most people in
this period made their living from farming, so it is reasonable to
assume that their survival depended on their ability to successfully
work the land. More specifically, farmers had to have extensive
knowledge of soil and weather conditions. They had to know the seasons,
when to plant and when to harvest. They also had to know the importance
of rain and its unpredictability. In the old days, as it is today,
after planting farmers had to literally “pray” for the rain to fall. In
all practicality, if the rain did not fall when it was needed, crops
would suffer and yield poorly. The quality of soil was also an important
factor in farming. If the soil was infertile the crop yield would be
poor. The ancient farmers had to know that.



When comparing today’s societies with those of 3000 years ago we find
that ancient people did not have the technology or the means to
transport food over great distances so a failed crop meant suffering and
starvation. In ancient times all the necessary work was done manually by
humans and animals (in some regions of the world farming is still done
this way). Today we have technology to till the land, plant seeds and
harvest crops. We have fertilizing to enrich the soil and water delivery
systems to water it. We also have better methods (although sometimes
questionable) of predicting the weather.



Now that we have established that the ancient societies of 3000 years
ago heavily depended on farming the land for their survival, we need to
establish a rationale for their gods. First we need to establish the
origin of these deities.



It was Plato (500-600 BC) that said “most gods and their traditions we
have received from the Barbarians”. A few hundred years later Herodotus
confirms Plato’s statement.

.

If these Barbarians, who according to Homer, were “as numerous as the
leaves in the forest” had the capacity to create these gods and pass
them on to the ancient Europeans, is it not possible that their other
characteristics have also descended and remain with us today?



It is important to note here that the original meaning of the word
barbarian was “misunderstood”. Today we know that barbarian does not
mean ignorant but rather a non-speaker of the languages of the ancient
city states.



Many authors, I believe, have tried to interpret the rationale behind
the ancient deities but did not go deep enough. In my opinion, their
scope was too narrow and they could not find a rational and logical
explanation. One of those authors was Edith Hamilton, a great scholar
and world-renowned classicist who wrote a book about Greek and Norse
Mythology. In her book, published in 1940, she talks about mythological
fairy tales and stories of the imagination, pure fiction with little
meaning or practicality that would connect the deities to every day
life. Others too have hinged on the imagination of the ancients as the
source for the creation of mythology.



I do have to admit that over time mythological stories most probably
have been embellished by the storytellers and as a result have somewhat
changed. But still we must not underestimate the ability of the ancient
Europeans to apply reason and logic. We also have to maintain the notion
that at the time of the “mythological creation”, which most likely was
over a long period of time, all the gods were created by necessity and
were an integral part of peoples’ lives. I have been carrying this
notion for many years and as a result have searched for more rational
and practical meanings in mythology.



Influenced by numerous literary sources connecting classical mythology
to the ancient Greeks and Romans, most writers over the last hundred
years or so have failed to widen their search and consider one of the
largest linguistic groups, the Slavonic languages. Myself, I have
discovered that the Slavonic languages offer an immense source of
knowledge in many fields including mythology.



For example, consider the following excerpt;



….The daughter of Doimater (Demeter), Prosorpina – (Persephone) is
“snatched” by Hades the god of the underworld and is taken underneath
the earth for four months of the year. In the beginning, Demeter is
furious as she frantically looks for her daughter. Her absence causes
the earth to freeze and become barren of all fruits and gifts to the
mortals. After some time Demeter accepts Persephone’s fate and allows
her to become Hades’ bride and spend the winters beneath the surface of
the earth…..

In the spring, when Hades changes to Pluto (his brother), Persephone
comes back to the surface bringing with her Pluto’s wealth of the
agriculture and all Demeter’s gifts of nature back to the mortals …..



Looking at the excerpt from a farmer’s point of view we find that the
changing of the seasons is perpetual and universal. As daylight
increases and the sun warms the earth, the earth comes back to life. The
soil is plowed, seeded and bears the fruits that sustain life. This is
an annual transformation that goes beyond the control of mere mortals
(humans). As farmers, the ancient people paid careful attention to the
seasons.



It is important at this point to note that the ancient creators of the
gods modeled their deities after their own images and their
relationships to one another. For example there were mother and father
gods, children and sibling gods. These gods were part of their lives and
daily existence.



It is also important to note that the various “myths” come to us from
the well known “Homeric Hymns”.



For many thousands of years the ancient Europeans observed natural
phenomena around them, phenomena such as the movement of the sun,
lightning and thunder descending from the sky, the birth of new life,
death, the falling of rain, the perpetual changing of day and night, the
changing of the moon, the stars, the changing of the seasons, the
enormous power of the uncontrollable seas, the phenomenon of fire, the
fruitfulness of mother earth and many more.



People could not explain or control these powerful natural phenomena but
accepted them as forces of nature. In their minds these powerful forces
were responsible for the existence of all life on earth so naturally the
early Europeans greatly respected, feared, honoured and accepted them as
gods.



Today we are not much different. Even though our religions have greatly
evolved, we still attribute things we don’t understand or wish for to
our God. All religions basically teach us to be good, to love and
respect one another, to be generous and to be honest and humble.



Unlike our ancestors, today we understand most of the natural phenomena
like how clouds and rain are formed, what causes the changing of the
seasons, etc. and no longer have the need to attribute them to the gods.



Also, in spite of what modern scholars tell us;



The Ancient Europeans did not imagine or create their gods purely for
fictional purposes but rather they modeled them after the powerful
“Natural Phenomena” which they observed over long periods of time. The
gods were created from the basic need to explain the natural forces that
controlled their lives.



This becomes apparent when we use the Macedonian language to explain the
role of the gods from the meaning of their names.



Most of the original names and characteristics of these deities clearly
coincide with basic fundamental words found in the modern Macedonian and
Slavonic languages. These words are part of language concepts that have
created very large families of words with very deep etymological root
connections pointing to a long and continual development. The Slavonic
languages provide the most logical explanation and are unparalleled
compared to other European and non-European languages. Evidence of this
is very strong and is extremely hard to ignore.



The following table provides examples of the relationship between the
meaning of the name of the deities and their role in nature.



Deity Name Associated with
Macedonian English Greek

Greek or Roman (attributes)
or Slavonic







Semele TheTraco- Macedonian
Zemja ,Zemje Earth Homa

Earth Goddess




Saturn Agricultural God
Sadi Planting Fiton

Sadir-Sadene
Sadenje



Doimater

(Demeter)Doi
Doi Nourishing, feeding Theripticos

Dos ,Doi,(Dos,Doi)
Dos-doi Rain



Pluto Riches of agriculture
Plodo, Plod Fruitful Karpoforos

Later- Wealth
(Plot)




Hades Underworld/ snake
Ghades Snake Ofis





The names of these Deities are interconnected in a most amazing
functional conception. In fact they exist together in harmony in the
Macedonian language today just as they always existed in nature. They
are inseparable. If we separate them their meaning will be lost.





Zemele –Zemle - Semelhs



Zemele is an ancient root word that exists only in the Slavonic languages.



The following are Macedonian etymological words associated with the root
word Zemele.



Zemja, Zemla the Earth

Zemjodelie agriculture

Zemjodelec crop farmer

Zemjak fellow countryman



Zemski earthly

Zemjotres earthquake

Prizemje partly underground

Temeli ( Zemeli) foundations (the foundations are always dug into
the Earth)



Temni to darken

Temno dark (it darkens as one descends deep into
earth)

Temnica darkness

Podzemle underground

Nadzemle aboveground

Zemjani inhabitants of the earth

Zemun, Zemunik place names originally built with earth/ soil
around them



Also, the above have close family ties with the following
pre-Into-European words:



Zemle, Semle, Sem(l)e, Seme seed that is planted in the earth

Semeto se see the seed is planted in
the earth



By losing the letter ’m’ above, we obtain;



Zemele, Semele, Seele, sele inhabiting the earth “living on
the Earth”



Sele, na sele to inhabit, dwell


Selo village (pre
Slav– house, habitat)

sela

nasele



and so on.



The word Zemele also has a number of “sister words” such as Zmija and
zmej a snake or snake like monster, cold-blooded creatures that live
below ground or in the underworld.



Now let’s review the characteristics and basic concepts associated with
the earth.



The Earth has two main attributes:



1. It is able to bear fruit àFruitfulness
2. Richness of the Soil à Plod à Pluto



Only a fruitful earth will bear “agricultural riches” associated with
the god Pluto.



The word Pluto is closely related to the Macedonian word Plod or Plodo.
In older versions of the Slavonic languages the letters and sounds of o
and u were interchangeable. This is significant because if we replace
the current letter ‘o’ with ‘u‘, we obtain Pludo. By the way, it is
important to mention here that Pluto’s original name, or more precisely,
one of Pluto’s older names is “Ploto”.



The word Plodo is part of a very large family of words many of which are
functionally related in a language concept.



The earth contains all the ingredients and ability to nourish life which
is planted into it. This is reflected and expressed in the words “Plodna
Zemja” or “fruitful earth” .This only happens when the earth’s two
attributes “fruitfulness and richness of soil” come together.



We know that everything that is alive bears fruit. Females (woman,
Zhena) must be “fruitful” as well as be impregnated with a seed at the
proper time or lunar cycle, in order to bear offspring and perpetuate life.



The seeds of every plant, when planted at the proper time (the spring),
will be nourished by the falling rain or Dos / Dosdoi, as we call it in
Macedonian. Coincidentally, the original name of Demeter was Doi (Doi)
and Dos (Dos).



Also from the Homeric poems we know that Doine (Doine - qoine) means
“feeding, nourishing”.



Again according to Homer, when the goddess Demeter came to earth to
search for her daughter she used the name Doi.



There is also one important fact that I would like to mention at his
point. According to one Macedonian tradition, which by the way is still
practiced to this day in remote parts of Macedonia, there is a chant
attributed to Doi that goes something like this;



“.. Doi -dole –Doidule-

Dozdo da zavrne.

Da na doi zemlata…”



These are actual words chanted to the rain goddess asking her to make it
rain (Dos and Dozd) so that the earth can be nourished and the crops
will grow and bear fruit.



It is important at this point to mention that Persephone, Demeter’s
daughter was also known by an older name as “Preseffeta” which in
Macedonian means “to bloom”. As we know all living plants bloom in the
spring when Persephone is released by Hades and returns to the surface.



And now let’s look at Hades, the god of the underworld and his
relationship to the natural world.



Ghades - Hades



We all know that during the winter months in the world where the climate
is moderate the earth freezes and loses its ability to bear fruit. In
other words, Doimater or Demeter “cuts off the fruitfulness, richness
and gift of the soil” as Pluto (Plodo), the richness of the soil escapes
into the underworld and becomes his brother Hades (Ghades).



Hades renews himself as he again snatches Demeter’s daughter who
symbolizes spring and summer, the warm seasons, and takes her below the
earth for another cycle. Hades’ renewal brings the end of the warm
season and the beginning of the cold one. For the farmers of old, Hades
was the “bad attribute” of the earth or the time when the soil lost its
Plod or ability to bear fruit. Hades is also associated with
decomposition, darkness and fear of the unknown.



Again, Ghades is a unique Slavonic word that does not exist in any other
European language. In most Slavonic cultures, the word Ghades is
associated with the snake but in Macedonian it could also mean something
bad, unpleasant, terrible, undesirable, or slimy.



Ghad

Ghadeno

Ghadesh

Se ghadi



To be continued.



The material in this article is the copyright property of Odyssey Belchevsky



You can contact the author Odie Belchevski at ***@yahoo.ca or
Risto Stefov at ***@hotmail.com
Anastassios Retzios <>
2004-11-28 05:27:54 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 27 Nov 2004 23:54:03 -0500, ++ <***@erols.com> wrote:

Has anybody heard of anything more ridiculous than this??? I mean,
this is stuff of high comedy!!!

ADR
Post by ++
Classical Mythology explained with the use of Macedonian vocabulary
A series of studies in European mythology
by Odisej Belchevsky
http://www.maknews.com/html/articles/belchevsky/belchevsky_practical_mythology1.html
Part 1 - Is there a practical meaning to mythology?
The information contained in this article is not of mythical or imagined
content but is very real, which the reader should find exciting and
interesting.
In this article I will take the reader through a fresh new look at
Classical Mythology and bring out the true meaning of the identities of
Demeter, Saturn, Pluto/Hades and Zemele.
How is it that for the last 200 years European scholars have been able
to attribute mathematics, physics, astronomy, government, military
strategies, natural principles and even the understanding of human
behavior to the ancient people of southern Europe and the Mediterranean
yet when it comes to interpreting mythological figures they could only
manage to provide imaginary, unrealistic, impractical, hard to
understand and confusing explanations?
Is it possible that modern scholars and scholars of the “Romantic Era”
in particular, did not have a clear understanding of the true meaning of
the names of deities in relation to the deities’ roles and functions in
nature?
I will begin my interpretation by providing the reader with a foundation
for understanding the process by which the ancient Europeans created
what we today call Classical Mythology. I will then show how the ancient
Europeans used practical methods for naming their deities and each name
such as Demeter, Pluto, Hades, Zemele, etc. had a special meaning for
them which, when interpreted properly, makes sense even today.
To conduct our interpretations properly we must seek the oldest name of
each deity and have a good knowledge of the deity’s attributes and
characteristics. It is also essential that we have a good knowledge of
the old Macedonian languages, Koine and Slavonic.
It is particularly important to know the oldest name of the gods and
goddesses because many deities have been borrowed by various cultures
and over time their names have been changed.
Over the years I have studied many details of these deities both from
linguistic and historical sources and, although many books have been
written on this subject, none can provide a simple and logical
explanation. Most often the average person searching for meaning is left
with a confusing, complicated, long, stretched out and generally
difficult explanation.
By applying my knowledge of the Macedonian language, some of its older
dialects and old Slavonic I have been able to find simpler and practical
meanings for the names of the deities which not only identify the
deities with nature but also put them in harmony with their
characteristics and attributes.
In this article I would like to offer a practical meaning for the four
deities: Demeter, Pluto, Hades and Zemele.
After establishing the meaning of the names of these four we can use the
same method to explain the meaning and role of almost all known
classical deities. We must also keep in mind that some names and their
meanings have evolved over the years.
If we were to study the ancient societies from about 1500 to 500 B.C. we
would find that their world was a world of agriculture. Most people in
this period made their living from farming, so it is reasonable to
assume that their survival depended on their ability to successfully
work the land. More specifically, farmers had to have extensive
knowledge of soil and weather conditions. They had to know the seasons,
when to plant and when to harvest. They also had to know the importance
of rain and its unpredictability. In the old days, as it is today,
after planting farmers had to literally “pray” for the rain to fall. In
all practicality, if the rain did not fall when it was needed, crops
would suffer and yield poorly. The quality of soil was also an important
factor in farming. If the soil was infertile the crop yield would be
poor. The ancient farmers had to know that.
When comparing today’s societies with those of 3000 years ago we find
that ancient people did not have the technology or the means to
transport food over great distances so a failed crop meant suffering and
starvation. In ancient times all the necessary work was done manually by
humans and animals (in some regions of the world farming is still done
this way). Today we have technology to till the land, plant seeds and
harvest crops. We have fertilizing to enrich the soil and water delivery
systems to water it. We also have better methods (although sometimes
questionable) of predicting the weather.
Now that we have established that the ancient societies of 3000 years
ago heavily depended on farming the land for their survival, we need to
establish a rationale for their gods. First we need to establish the
origin of these deities.
It was Plato (500-600 BC) that said “most gods and their traditions we
have received from the Barbarians”. A few hundred years later Herodotus
confirms Plato’s statement.
.
If these Barbarians, who according to Homer, were “as numerous as the
leaves in the forest” had the capacity to create these gods and pass
them on to the ancient Europeans, is it not possible that their other
characteristics have also descended and remain with us today?
It is important to note here that the original meaning of the word
barbarian was “misunderstood”. Today we know that barbarian does not
mean ignorant but rather a non-speaker of the languages of the ancient
city states.
Many authors, I believe, have tried to interpret the rationale behind
the ancient deities but did not go deep enough. In my opinion, their
scope was too narrow and they could not find a rational and logical
explanation. One of those authors was Edith Hamilton, a great scholar
and world-renowned classicist who wrote a book about Greek and Norse
Mythology. In her book, published in 1940, she talks about mythological
fairy tales and stories of the imagination, pure fiction with little
meaning or practicality that would connect the deities to every day
life. Others too have hinged on the imagination of the ancients as the
source for the creation of mythology.
I do have to admit that over time mythological stories most probably
have been embellished by the storytellers and as a result have somewhat
changed. But still we must not underestimate the ability of the ancient
Europeans to apply reason and logic. We also have to maintain the notion
that at the time of the “mythological creation”, which most likely was
over a long period of time, all the gods were created by necessity and
were an integral part of peoples’ lives. I have been carrying this
notion for many years and as a result have searched for more rational
and practical meanings in mythology.
Influenced by numerous literary sources connecting classical mythology
to the ancient Greeks and Romans, most writers over the last hundred
years or so have failed to widen their search and consider one of the
largest linguistic groups, the Slavonic languages. Myself, I have
discovered that the Slavonic languages offer an immense source of
knowledge in many fields including mythology.
For example, consider the following excerpt;
….The daughter of Doimater (Demeter), Prosorpina – (Persephone) is
“snatched” by Hades the god of the underworld and is taken underneath
the earth for four months of the year. In the beginning, Demeter is
furious as she frantically looks for her daughter. Her absence causes
the earth to freeze and become barren of all fruits and gifts to the
mortals. After some time Demeter accepts Persephone’s fate and allows
her to become Hades’ bride and spend the winters beneath the surface of
the earth…..
In the spring, when Hades changes to Pluto (his brother), Persephone
comes back to the surface bringing with her Pluto’s wealth of the
agriculture and all Demeter’s gifts of nature back to the mortals …..
Looking at the excerpt from a farmer’s point of view we find that the
changing of the seasons is perpetual and universal. As daylight
increases and the sun warms the earth, the earth comes back to life. The
soil is plowed, seeded and bears the fruits that sustain life. This is
an annual transformation that goes beyond the control of mere mortals
(humans). As farmers, the ancient people paid careful attention to the
seasons.
It is important at this point to note that the ancient creators of the
gods modeled their deities after their own images and their
relationships to one another. For example there were mother and father
gods, children and sibling gods. These gods were part of their lives and
daily existence.
It is also important to note that the various “myths” come to us from
the well known “Homeric Hymns”.
For many thousands of years the ancient Europeans observed natural
phenomena around them, phenomena such as the movement of the sun,
lightning and thunder descending from the sky, the birth of new life,
death, the falling of rain, the perpetual changing of day and night, the
changing of the moon, the stars, the changing of the seasons, the
enormous power of the uncontrollable seas, the phenomenon of fire, the
fruitfulness of mother earth and many more.
People could not explain or control these powerful natural phenomena but
accepted them as forces of nature. In their minds these powerful forces
were responsible for the existence of all life on earth so naturally the
early Europeans greatly respected, feared, honoured and accepted them as
gods.
Today we are not much different. Even though our religions have greatly
evolved, we still attribute things we don’t understand or wish for to
our God. All religions basically teach us to be good, to love and
respect one another, to be generous and to be honest and humble.
Unlike our ancestors, today we understand most of the natural phenomena
like how clouds and rain are formed, what causes the changing of the
seasons, etc. and no longer have the need to attribute them to the gods.
Also, in spite of what modern scholars tell us;
The Ancient Europeans did not imagine or create their gods purely for
fictional purposes but rather they modeled them after the powerful
“Natural Phenomena” which they observed over long periods of time. The
gods were created from the basic need to explain the natural forces that
controlled their lives.
This becomes apparent when we use the Macedonian language to explain the
role of the gods from the meaning of their names.
Most of the original names and characteristics of these deities clearly
coincide with basic fundamental words found in the modern Macedonian and
Slavonic languages. These words are part of language concepts that have
created very large families of words with very deep etymological root
connections pointing to a long and continual development. The Slavonic
languages provide the most logical explanation and are unparalleled
compared to other European and non-European languages. Evidence of this
is very strong and is extremely hard to ignore.
The following table provides examples of the relationship between the
meaning of the name of the deities and their role in nature.
Deity Name Associated with
Macedonian English Greek
Greek or Roman (attributes)
or Slavonic
Semele TheTraco- Macedonian
Zemja ,Zemje Earth Homa
Earth Goddess
Saturn Agricultural God
Sadi Planting Fiton
Sadir-Sadene
Sadenje
Doimater
(Demeter)Doi
Doi Nourishing, feeding Theripticos
Dos ,Doi,(Dos,Doi)
Dos-doi Rain
Pluto Riches of agriculture
Plodo, Plod Fruitful Karpoforos
Later- Wealth
(Plot)
Hades Underworld/ snake
Ghades Snake Ofis
The names of these Deities are interconnected in a most amazing
functional conception. In fact they exist together in harmony in the
Macedonian language today just as they always existed in nature. They
are inseparable. If we separate them their meaning will be lost.
Zemele –Zemle - Semelhs
Zemele is an ancient root word that exists only in the Slavonic languages.
The following are Macedonian etymological words associated with the root
word Zemele.
Zemja, Zemla the Earth
Zemjodelie agriculture
Zemjodelec crop farmer
Zemjak fellow countryman
Zemski earthly
Zemjotres earthquake
Prizemje partly underground
Temeli ( Zemeli) foundations (the foundations are always dug into
the Earth)
Temni to darken
Temno dark (it darkens as one descends deep into
earth)
Temnica darkness
Podzemle underground
Nadzemle aboveground
Zemjani inhabitants of the earth
Zemun, Zemunik place names originally built with earth/ soil
around them
Also, the above have close family ties with the following
Zemle, Semle, Sem(l)e, Seme seed that is planted in the earth
Semeto se see the seed is planted in
the earth
By losing the letter ’m’ above, we obtain;
Zemele, Semele, Seele, sele inhabiting the earth “living on
the Earth”
Sele, na sele to inhabit, dwell
Selo village (pre
Slav– house, habitat)
sela
nasele
and so on.
The word Zemele also has a number of “sister words” such as Zmija and
zmej a snake or snake like monster, cold-blooded creatures that live
below ground or in the underworld.
Now let’s review the characteristics and basic concepts associated with
the earth.
1. It is able to bear fruit ?Fruitfulness
2. Richness of the Soil ? Plod ? Pluto
Only a fruitful earth will bear “agricultural riches” associated with
the god Pluto.
The word Pluto is closely related to the Macedonian word Plod or Plodo.
In older versions of the Slavonic languages the letters and sounds of o
and u were interchangeable. This is significant because if we replace
the current letter ‘o’ with ‘u‘, we obtain Pludo. By the way, it is
important to mention here that Pluto’s original name, or more precisely,
one of Pluto’s older names is “Ploto”.
The word Plodo is part of a very large family of words many of which are
functionally related in a language concept.
The earth contains all the ingredients and ability to nourish life which
is planted into it. This is reflected and expressed in the words “Plodna
Zemja” or “fruitful earth” .This only happens when the earth’s two
attributes “fruitfulness and richness of soil” come together.
We know that everything that is alive bears fruit. Females (woman,
Zhena) must be “fruitful” as well as be impregnated with a seed at the
proper time or lunar cycle, in order to bear offspring and perpetuate life.
The seeds of every plant, when planted at the proper time (the spring),
will be nourished by the falling rain or Dos / Dosdoi, as we call it in
Macedonian. Coincidentally, the original name of Demeter was Doi (Doi)
and Dos (Dos).
Also from the Homeric poems we know that Doine (Doine - qoine) means
“feeding, nourishing”.
Again according to Homer, when the goddess Demeter came to earth to
search for her daughter she used the name Doi.
There is also one important fact that I would like to mention at his
point. According to one Macedonian tradition, which by the way is still
practiced to this day in remote parts of Macedonia, there is a chant
attributed to Doi that goes something like this;
“.. Doi -dole –Doidule-
Dozdo da zavrne.
Da na doi zemlata…”
These are actual words chanted to the rain goddess asking her to make it
rain (Dos and Dozd) so that the earth can be nourished and the crops
will grow and bear fruit.
It is important at this point to mention that Persephone, Demeter’s
daughter was also known by an older name as “Preseffeta” which in
Macedonian means “to bloom”. As we know all living plants bloom in the
spring when Persephone is released by Hades and returns to the surface.
And now let’s look at Hades, the god of the underworld and his
relationship to the natural world.
Ghades - Hades
We all know that during the winter months in the world where the climate
is moderate the earth freezes and loses its ability to bear fruit. In
other words, Doimater or Demeter “cuts off the fruitfulness, richness
and gift of the soil” as Pluto (Plodo), the richness of the soil escapes
into the underworld and becomes his brother Hades (Ghades).
Hades renews himself as he again snatches Demeter’s daughter who
symbolizes spring and summer, the warm seasons, and takes her below the
earth for another cycle. Hades’ renewal brings the end of the warm
season and the beginning of the cold one. For the farmers of old, Hades
was the “bad attribute” of the earth or the time when the soil lost its
Plod or ability to bear fruit. Hades is also associated with
decomposition, darkness and fear of the unknown.
Again, Ghades is a unique Slavonic word that does not exist in any other
European language. In most Slavonic cultures, the word Ghades is
associated with the snake but in Macedonian it could also mean something
bad, unpleasant, terrible, undesirable, or slimy.
Ghad
Ghadeno
Ghadesh
Se ghadi
To be continued.
The material in this article is the copyright property of Odyssey Belchevsky
ERIC
2004-11-28 07:36:16 UTC
Permalink
I believe the better descriptor might be ridiculous farce----- Now, if you
do a quick Google search for this Odyssey Belchevsky, you'll note that the
1st hit for this clown and budding comedy script writer describes him as

Scientific research and studies by the author: Odyssey Belchevsky a
researcher,
historian and self taught linguist of over 18 years. ...

"Historian and self taught linguist"----he'd have been a tremendous addition
on the creative team for the Monty Python troupe back in the 70's.

As an aside, (but not at too great a distance), does anyone know if the U.
of Skopje a recognized academic institution?
Thanks in advance
Eric
--
Post by Anastassios Retzios <>
Has anybody heard of anything more ridiculous than this??? I mean,
this is stuff of high comedy!!!
ADR
Post by ++
Classical Mythology explained with the use of Macedonian vocabulary
A series of studies in European mythology
by Odisej Belchevsky
http://www.maknews.com/html/articles/belchevsky/belchevsky_practical_mythology1.html
Part 1 - Is there a practical meaning to mythology?
The information contained in this article is not of mythical or imagined
content but is very real, which the reader should find exciting and
interesting.
In this article I will take the reader through a fresh new look at
Classical Mythology and bring out the true meaning of the identities of
Demeter, Saturn, Pluto/Hades and Zemele.
How is it that for the last 200 years European scholars have been able
to attribute mathematics, physics, astronomy, government, military
strategies, natural principles and even the understanding of human
behavior to the ancient people of southern Europe and the Mediterranean
yet when it comes to interpreting mythological figures they could only
manage to provide imaginary, unrealistic, impractical, hard to
understand and confusing explanations?
Is it possible that modern scholars and scholars of the "Romantic Era"
in particular, did not have a clear understanding of the true meaning of
the names of deities in relation to the deities' roles and functions in
nature?
I will begin my interpretation by providing the reader with a foundation
for understanding the process by which the ancient Europeans created
what we today call Classical Mythology. I will then show how the ancient
Europeans used practical methods for naming their deities and each name
such as Demeter, Pluto, Hades, Zemele, etc. had a special meaning for
them which, when interpreted properly, makes sense even today.
To conduct our interpretations properly we must seek the oldest name of
each deity and have a good knowledge of the deity's attributes and
characteristics. It is also essential that we have a good knowledge of
the old Macedonian languages, Koine and Slavonic.
It is particularly important to know the oldest name of the gods and
goddesses because many deities have been borrowed by various cultures
and over time their names have been changed.
Over the years I have studied many details of these deities both from
linguistic and historical sources and, although many books have been
written on this subject, none can provide a simple and logical
explanation. Most often the average person searching for meaning is left
with a confusing, complicated, long, stretched out and generally
difficult explanation.
By applying my knowledge of the Macedonian language, some of its older
dialects and old Slavonic I have been able to find simpler and practical
meanings for the names of the deities which not only identify the
deities with nature but also put them in harmony with their
characteristics and attributes.
In this article I would like to offer a practical meaning for the four
deities: Demeter, Pluto, Hades and Zemele.
After establishing the meaning of the names of these four we can use the
same method to explain the meaning and role of almost all known
classical deities. We must also keep in mind that some names and their
meanings have evolved over the years.
If we were to study the ancient societies from about 1500 to 500 B.C. we
would find that their world was a world of agriculture. Most people in
this period made their living from farming, so it is reasonable to
assume that their survival depended on their ability to successfully
work the land. More specifically, farmers had to have extensive
knowledge of soil and weather conditions. They had to know the seasons,
when to plant and when to harvest. They also had to know the importance
of rain and its unpredictability. In the old days, as it is today,
after planting farmers had to literally "pray" for the rain to fall. In
all practicality, if the rain did not fall when it was needed, crops
would suffer and yield poorly. The quality of soil was also an important
factor in farming. If the soil was infertile the crop yield would be
poor. The ancient farmers had to know that.
When comparing today's societies with those of 3000 years ago we find
that ancient people did not have the technology or the means to
transport food over great distances so a failed crop meant suffering and
starvation. In ancient times all the necessary work was done manually by
humans and animals (in some regions of the world farming is still done
this way). Today we have technology to till the land, plant seeds and
harvest crops. We have fertilizing to enrich the soil and water delivery
systems to water it. We also have better methods (although sometimes
questionable) of predicting the weather.
Now that we have established that the ancient societies of 3000 years
ago heavily depended on farming the land for their survival, we need to
establish a rationale for their gods. First we need to establish the
origin of these deities.
It was Plato (500-600 BC) that said "most gods and their traditions we
have received from the Barbarians". A few hundred years later Herodotus
confirms Plato's statement.
.
If these Barbarians, who according to Homer, were "as numerous as the
leaves in the forest" had the capacity to create these gods and pass
them on to the ancient Europeans, is it not possible that their other
characteristics have also descended and remain with us today?
It is important to note here that the original meaning of the word
barbarian was "misunderstood". Today we know that barbarian does not
mean ignorant but rather a non-speaker of the languages of the ancient
city states.
Many authors, I believe, have tried to interpret the rationale behind
the ancient deities but did not go deep enough. In my opinion, their
scope was too narrow and they could not find a rational and logical
explanation. One of those authors was Edith Hamilton, a great scholar
and world-renowned classicist who wrote a book about Greek and Norse
Mythology. In her book, published in 1940, she talks about mythological
fairy tales and stories of the imagination, pure fiction with little
meaning or practicality that would connect the deities to every day
life. Others too have hinged on the imagination of the ancients as the
source for the creation of mythology.
I do have to admit that over time mythological stories most probably
have been embellished by the storytellers and as a result have somewhat
changed. But still we must not underestimate the ability of the ancient
Europeans to apply reason and logic. We also have to maintain the notion
that at the time of the "mythological creation", which most likely was
over a long period of time, all the gods were created by necessity and
were an integral part of peoples' lives. I have been carrying this
notion for many years and as a result have searched for more rational
and practical meanings in mythology.
Influenced by numerous literary sources connecting classical mythology
to the ancient Greeks and Romans, most writers over the last hundred
years or so have failed to widen their search and consider one of the
largest linguistic groups, the Slavonic languages. Myself, I have
discovered that the Slavonic languages offer an immense source of
knowledge in many fields including mythology.
For example, consider the following excerpt;
..The daughter of Doimater (Demeter), Prosorpina - (Persephone) is
"snatched" by Hades the god of the underworld and is taken underneath
the earth for four months of the year. In the beginning, Demeter is
furious as she frantically looks for her daughter. Her absence causes
the earth to freeze and become barren of all fruits and gifts to the
mortals. After some time Demeter accepts Persephone's fate and allows
her to become Hades' bride and spend the winters beneath the surface of
the earth...
In the spring, when Hades changes to Pluto (his brother), Persephone
comes back to the surface bringing with her Pluto's wealth of the
agriculture and all Demeter's gifts of nature back to the mortals ...
Looking at the excerpt from a farmer's point of view we find that the
changing of the seasons is perpetual and universal. As daylight
increases and the sun warms the earth, the earth comes back to life. The
soil is plowed, seeded and bears the fruits that sustain life. This is
an annual transformation that goes beyond the control of mere mortals
(humans). As farmers, the ancient people paid careful attention to the
seasons.
It is important at this point to note that the ancient creators of the
gods modeled their deities after their own images and their
relationships to one another. For example there were mother and father
gods, children and sibling gods. These gods were part of their lives and
daily existence.
It is also important to note that the various "myths" come to us from
the well known "Homeric Hymns".
For many thousands of years the ancient Europeans observed natural
phenomena around them, phenomena such as the movement of the sun,
lightning and thunder descending from the sky, the birth of new life,
death, the falling of rain, the perpetual changing of day and night, the
changing of the moon, the stars, the changing of the seasons, the
enormous power of the uncontrollable seas, the phenomenon of fire, the
fruitfulness of mother earth and many more.
People could not explain or control these powerful natural phenomena but
accepted them as forces of nature. In their minds these powerful forces
were responsible for the existence of all life on earth so naturally the
early Europeans greatly respected, feared, honoured and accepted them as
gods.
Today we are not much different. Even though our religions have greatly
evolved, we still attribute things we don't understand or wish for to
our God. All religions basically teach us to be good, to love and
respect one another, to be generous and to be honest and humble.
Unlike our ancestors, today we understand most of the natural phenomena
like how clouds and rain are formed, what causes the changing of the
seasons, etc. and no longer have the need to attribute them to the gods.
Also, in spite of what modern scholars tell us;
The Ancient Europeans did not imagine or create their gods purely for
fictional purposes but rather they modeled them after the powerful
"Natural Phenomena" which they observed over long periods of time. The
gods were created from the basic need to explain the natural forces that
controlled their lives.
This becomes apparent when we use the Macedonian language to explain the
role of the gods from the meaning of their names.
Most of the original names and characteristics of these deities clearly
coincide with basic fundamental words found in the modern Macedonian and
Slavonic languages. These words are part of language concepts that have
created very large families of words with very deep etymological root
connections pointing to a long and continual development. The Slavonic
languages provide the most logical explanation and are unparalleled
compared to other European and non-European languages. Evidence of this
is very strong and is extremely hard to ignore.
The following table provides examples of the relationship between the
meaning of the name of the deities and their role in nature.
Deity Name Associated with
Macedonian English Greek
Greek or Roman (attributes)
or Slavonic
Semele TheTraco- Macedonian
Zemja ,Zemje Earth Homa
Earth Goddess
Saturn Agricultural God
Sadi Planting Fiton
Sadir-Sadene
Sadenje
Doimater
(Demeter)Doi
Doi Nourishing, feeding Theripticos
Dos ,Doi,(Dos,Doi)
Dos-doi Rain
Pluto Riches of agriculture
Plodo, Plod Fruitful Karpoforos
Later- Wealth
(Plot)
Hades Underworld/ snake
Ghades Snake Ofis
The names of these Deities are interconnected in a most amazing
functional conception. In fact they exist together in harmony in the
Macedonian language today just as they always existed in nature. They
are inseparable. If we separate them their meaning will be lost.
Zemele -Zemle - Semelhs
Zemele is an ancient root word that exists only in the Slavonic languages.
The following are Macedonian etymological words associated with the root
word Zemele.
Zemja, Zemla the Earth
Zemjodelie agriculture
Zemjodelec crop farmer
Zemjak fellow countryman
Zemski earthly
Zemjotres earthquake
Prizemje partly underground
Temeli ( Zemeli) foundations (the foundations are always dug into
the Earth)
Temni to darken
Temno dark (it darkens as one descends deep into
earth)
Temnica darkness
Podzemle underground
Nadzemle aboveground
Zemjani inhabitants of the earth
Zemun, Zemunik place names originally built with earth/ soil
around them
Also, the above have close family ties with the following
Zemle, Semle, Sem(l)e, Seme seed that is planted in the earth
Semeto se see the seed is planted in
the earth
By losing the letter 'm' above, we obtain;
Zemele, Semele, Seele, sele inhabiting the earth "living on
the Earth"
Sele, na sele to inhabit, dwell
Selo village (pre
Slav- house, habitat)
sela
nasele
and so on.
The word Zemele also has a number of "sister words" such as Zmija and
zmej a snake or snake like monster, cold-blooded creatures that live
below ground or in the underworld.
Now let's review the characteristics and basic concepts associated with
the earth.
1. It is able to bear fruit ?Fruitfulness
2. Richness of the Soil ? Plod ? Pluto
Only a fruitful earth will bear "agricultural riches" associated with
the god Pluto.
The word Pluto is closely related to the Macedonian word Plod or Plodo.
In older versions of the Slavonic languages the letters and sounds of o
and u were interchangeable. This is significant because if we replace
the current letter 'o' with 'u', we obtain Pludo. By the way, it is
important to mention here that Pluto's original name, or more precisely,
one of Pluto's older names is "Ploto".
The word Plodo is part of a very large family of words many of which are
functionally related in a language concept.
The earth contains all the ingredients and ability to nourish life which
is planted into it. This is reflected and expressed in the words "Plodna
Zemja" or "fruitful earth" .This only happens when the earth's two
attributes "fruitfulness and richness of soil" come together.
We know that everything that is alive bears fruit. Females (woman,
Zhena) must be "fruitful" as well as be impregnated with a seed at the
proper time or lunar cycle, in order to bear offspring and perpetuate life.
The seeds of every plant, when planted at the proper time (the spring),
will be nourished by the falling rain or Dos / Dosdoi, as we call it in
Macedonian. Coincidentally, the original name of Demeter was Doi (Doi)
and Dos (Dos).
Also from the Homeric poems we know that Doine (Doine - qoine) means
"feeding, nourishing".
Again according to Homer, when the goddess Demeter came to earth to
search for her daughter she used the name Doi.
There is also one important fact that I would like to mention at his
point. According to one Macedonian tradition, which by the way is still
practiced to this day in remote parts of Macedonia, there is a chant
attributed to Doi that goes something like this;
".. Doi -dole -Doidule-
Dozdo da zavrne.
Da na doi zemlata."
These are actual words chanted to the rain goddess asking her to make it
rain (Dos and Dozd) so that the earth can be nourished and the crops
will grow and bear fruit.
It is important at this point to mention that Persephone, Demeter's
daughter was also known by an older name as "Preseffeta" which in
Macedonian means "to bloom". As we know all living plants bloom in the
spring when Persephone is released by Hades and returns to the surface.
And now let's look at Hades, the god of the underworld and his
relationship to the natural world.
Ghades - Hades
We all know that during the winter months in the world where the climate
is moderate the earth freezes and loses its ability to bear fruit. In
other words, Doimater or Demeter "cuts off the fruitfulness, richness
and gift of the soil" as Pluto (Plodo), the richness of the soil escapes
into the underworld and becomes his brother Hades (Ghades).
Hades renews himself as he again snatches Demeter's daughter who
symbolizes spring and summer, the warm seasons, and takes her below the
earth for another cycle. Hades' renewal brings the end of the warm
season and the beginning of the cold one. For the farmers of old, Hades
was the "bad attribute" of the earth or the time when the soil lost its
Plod or ability to bear fruit. Hades is also associated with
decomposition, darkness and fear of the unknown.
Again, Ghades is a unique Slavonic word that does not exist in any other
European language. In most Slavonic cultures, the word Ghades is
associated with the snake but in Macedonian it could also mean something
bad, unpleasant, terrible, undesirable, or slimy.
Ghad
Ghadeno
Ghadesh
Se ghadi
To be continued.
The material in this article is the copyright property of Odyssey Belchevsky
Anastassios D. Retzios <>
2004-11-28 18:40:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by ERIC
I believe the better descriptor might be ridiculous farce----- Now, if you
do a quick Google search for this Odyssey Belchevsky, you'll note that the
1st hit for this clown and budding comedy script writer describes him as
Scientific research and studies by the author: Odyssey Belchevsky a
researcher,
historian and self taught linguist of over 18 years. ...
"Historian and self taught linguist"----he'd have been a tremendous addition
on the creative team for the Monty Python troupe back in the 70's.
As an aside, (but not at too great a distance), does anyone know if the U.
of Skopje a recognized academic institution?
Thanks in advance
Eric
Recognized by whom??? Who cares! It should be called the University
of crackpots!!!

Hey, we should have more postings from this "self-taught" linguist. I
need more fun in my life. Really, this was a hilarious posting!

ADR
++
2004-11-29 21:11:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Anastassios Retzios <>
Has anybody heard of anything more ridiculous than this??? I mean,
this is stuff of high comedy!!!
If you think so, then why? And why not copy to Odi Belcevski, a very
earnest man?
Post by Anastassios Retzios <>
ADR
Post by ++
Classical Mythology explained with the use of Macedonian vocabulary
A series of studies in European mythology
by Odisej Belchevsky
http://www.maknews.com/html/articles/belchevsky/belchevsky_practical_mythology1.html
Part 1 - Is there a practical meaning to mythology?
The information contained in this article is not of mythical or imagined
content but is very real, which the reader should find exciting and
interesting.
In this article I will take the reader through a fresh new look at
Classical Mythology and bring out the true meaning of the identities of
Demeter, Saturn, Pluto/Hades and Zemele.
How is it that for the last 200 years European scholars have been able
to attribute mathematics, physics, astronomy, government, military
strategies, natural principles and even the understanding of human
behavior to the ancient people of southern Europe and the Mediterranean
yet when it comes to interpreting mythological figures they could only
manage to provide imaginary, unrealistic, impractical, hard to
understand and confusing explanations?
Is it possible that modern scholars and scholars of the “Romantic Era”
in particular, did not have a clear understanding of the true meaning of
the names of deities in relation to the deities’ roles and functions in
nature?
I will begin my interpretation by providing the reader with a foundation
for understanding the process by which the ancient Europeans created
what we today call Classical Mythology. I will then show how the ancient
Europeans used practical methods for naming their deities and each name
such as Demeter, Pluto, Hades, Zemele, etc. had a special meaning for
them which, when interpreted properly, makes sense even today.
To conduct our interpretations properly we must seek the oldest name of
each deity and have a good knowledge of the deity’s attributes and
characteristics. It is also essential that we have a good knowledge of
the old Macedonian languages, Koine and Slavonic.
It is particularly important to know the oldest name of the gods and
goddesses because many deities have been borrowed by various cultures
and over time their names have been changed.
Over the years I have studied many details of these deities both from
linguistic and historical sources and, although many books have been
written on this subject, none can provide a simple and logical
explanation. Most often the average person searching for meaning is left
with a confusing, complicated, long, stretched out and generally
difficult explanation.
By applying my knowledge of the Macedonian language, some of its older
dialects and old Slavonic I have been able to find simpler and practical
meanings for the names of the deities which not only identify the
deities with nature but also put them in harmony with their
characteristics and attributes.
In this article I would like to offer a practical meaning for the four
deities: Demeter, Pluto, Hades and Zemele.
After establishing the meaning of the names of these four we can use the
same method to explain the meaning and role of almost all known
classical deities. We must also keep in mind that some names and their
meanings have evolved over the years.
If we were to study the ancient societies from about 1500 to 500 B.C. we
would find that their world was a world of agriculture. Most people in
this period made their living from farming, so it is reasonable to
assume that their survival depended on their ability to successfully
work the land. More specifically, farmers had to have extensive
knowledge of soil and weather conditions. They had to know the seasons,
when to plant and when to harvest. They also had to know the importance
of rain and its unpredictability. In the old days, as it is today,
after planting farmers had to literally “pray” for the rain to fall. In
all practicality, if the rain did not fall when it was needed, crops
would suffer and yield poorly. The quality of soil was also an important
factor in farming. If the soil was infertile the crop yield would be
poor. The ancient farmers had to know that.
When comparing today’s societies with those of 3000 years ago we find
that ancient people did not have the technology or the means to
transport food over great distances so a failed crop meant suffering and
starvation. In ancient times all the necessary work was done manually by
humans and animals (in some regions of the world farming is still done
this way). Today we have technology to till the land, plant seeds and
harvest crops. We have fertilizing to enrich the soil and water delivery
systems to water it. We also have better methods (although sometimes
questionable) of predicting the weather.
Now that we have established that the ancient societies of 3000 years
ago heavily depended on farming the land for their survival, we need to
establish a rationale for their gods. First we need to establish the
origin of these deities.
It was Plato (500-600 BC) that said “most gods and their traditions we
have received from the Barbarians”. A few hundred years later Herodotus
confirms Plato’s statement.
.
If these Barbarians, who according to Homer, were “as numerous as the
leaves in the forest” had the capacity to create these gods and pass
them on to the ancient Europeans, is it not possible that their other
characteristics have also descended and remain with us today?
It is important to note here that the original meaning of the word
barbarian was “misunderstood”. Today we know that barbarian does not
mean ignorant but rather a non-speaker of the languages of the ancient
city states.
Many authors, I believe, have tried to interpret the rationale behind
the ancient deities but did not go deep enough. In my opinion, their
scope was too narrow and they could not find a rational and logical
explanation. One of those authors was Edith Hamilton, a great scholar
and world-renowned classicist who wrote a book about Greek and Norse
Mythology. In her book, published in 1940, she talks about mythological
fairy tales and stories of the imagination, pure fiction with little
meaning or practicality that would connect the deities to every day
life. Others too have hinged on the imagination of the ancients as the
source for the creation of mythology.
I do have to admit that over time mythological stories most probably
have been embellished by the storytellers and as a result have somewhat
changed. But still we must not underestimate the ability of the ancient
Europeans to apply reason and logic. We also have to maintain the notion
that at the time of the “mythological creation”, which most likely was
over a long period of time, all the gods were created by necessity and
were an integral part of peoples’ lives. I have been carrying this
notion for many years and as a result have searched for more rational
and practical meanings in mythology.
Influenced by numerous literary sources connecting classical mythology
to the ancient Greeks and Romans, most writers over the last hundred
years or so have failed to widen their search and consider one of the
largest linguistic groups, the Slavonic languages. Myself, I have
discovered that the Slavonic languages offer an immense source of
knowledge in many fields including mythology.
For example, consider the following excerpt;
….The daughter of Doimater (Demeter), Prosorpina – (Persephone) is
“snatched” by Hades the god of the underworld and is taken underneath
the earth for four months of the year. In the beginning, Demeter is
furious as she frantically looks for her daughter. Her absence causes
the earth to freeze and become barren of all fruits and gifts to the
mortals. After some time Demeter accepts Persephone’s fate and allows
her to become Hades’ bride and spend the winters beneath the surface of
the earth…..
In the spring, when Hades changes to Pluto (his brother), Persephone
comes back to the surface bringing with her Pluto’s wealth of the
agriculture and all Demeter’s gifts of nature back to the mortals …..
Looking at the excerpt from a farmer’s point of view we find that the
changing of the seasons is perpetual and universal. As daylight
increases and the sun warms the earth, the earth comes back to life. The
soil is plowed, seeded and bears the fruits that sustain life. This is
an annual transformation that goes beyond the control of mere mortals
(humans). As farmers, the ancient people paid careful attention to the
seasons.
It is important at this point to note that the ancient creators of the
gods modeled their deities after their own images and their
relationships to one another. For example there were mother and father
gods, children and sibling gods. These gods were part of their lives and
daily existence.
It is also important to note that the various “myths” come to us from
the well known “Homeric Hymns”.
For many thousands of years the ancient Europeans observed natural
phenomena around them, phenomena such as the movement of the sun,
lightning and thunder descending from the sky, the birth of new life,
death, the falling of rain, the perpetual changing of day and night, the
changing of the moon, the stars, the changing of the seasons, the
enormous power of the uncontrollable seas, the phenomenon of fire, the
fruitfulness of mother earth and many more.
People could not explain or control these powerful natural phenomena but
accepted them as forces of nature. In their minds these powerful forces
were responsible for the existence of all life on earth so naturally the
early Europeans greatly respected, feared, honoured and accepted them as
gods.
Today we are not much different. Even though our religions have greatly
evolved, we still attribute things we don’t understand or wish for to
our God. All religions basically teach us to be good, to love and
respect one another, to be generous and to be honest and humble.
Unlike our ancestors, today we understand most of the natural phenomena
like how clouds and rain are formed, what causes the changing of the
seasons, etc. and no longer have the need to attribute them to the gods.
Also, in spite of what modern scholars tell us;
The Ancient Europeans did not imagine or create their gods purely for
fictional purposes but rather they modeled them after the powerful
“Natural Phenomena” which they observed over long periods of time. The
gods were created from the basic need to explain the natural forces that
controlled their lives.
This becomes apparent when we use the Macedonian language to explain the
role of the gods from the meaning of their names.
Most of the original names and characteristics of these deities clearly
coincide with basic fundamental words found in the modern Macedonian and
Slavonic languages. These words are part of language concepts that have
created very large families of words with very deep etymological root
connections pointing to a long and continual development. The Slavonic
languages provide the most logical explanation and are unparalleled
compared to other European and non-European languages. Evidence of this
is very strong and is extremely hard to ignore.
The following table provides examples of the relationship between the
meaning of the name of the deities and their role in nature.
Deity Name Associated with
Macedonian English Greek
Greek or Roman (attributes)
or Slavonic
Semele TheTraco- Macedonian
Zemja ,Zemje Earth Homa
Earth Goddess
Saturn Agricultural God
Sadi Planting Fiton
Sadir-Sadene
Sadenje
Doimater
(Demeter)Doi
Doi Nourishing, feeding Theripticos
Dos ,Doi,(Dos,Doi)
Dos-doi Rain
Pluto Riches of agriculture
Plodo, Plod Fruitful Karpoforos
Later- Wealth
(Plot)
Hades Underworld/ snake
Ghades Snake Ofis
The names of these Deities are interconnected in a most amazing
functional conception. In fact they exist together in harmony in the
Macedonian language today just as they always existed in nature. They
are inseparable. If we separate them their meaning will be lost.
Zemele –Zemle - Semelhs
Zemele is an ancient root word that exists only in the Slavonic languages.
The following are Macedonian etymological words associated with the root
word Zemele.
Zemja, Zemla the Earth
Zemjodelie agriculture
Zemjodelec crop farmer
Zemjak fellow countryman
Zemski earthly
Zemjotres earthquake
Prizemje partly underground
Temeli ( Zemeli) foundations (the foundations are always dug into
the Earth)
Temni to darken
Temno dark (it darkens as one descends deep into
earth)
Temnica darkness
Podzemle underground
Nadzemle aboveground
Zemjani inhabitants of the earth
Zemun, Zemunik place names originally built with earth/ soil
around them
Also, the above have close family ties with the following
Zemle, Semle, Sem(l)e, Seme seed that is planted in the earth
Semeto se see the seed is planted in
the earth
By losing the letter ’m’ above, we obtain;
Zemele, Semele, Seele, sele inhabiting the earth “living on
the Earth”
Sele, na sele to inhabit, dwell
Selo village (pre
Slav– house, habitat)
sela
nasele
and so on.
The word Zemele also has a number of “sister words” such as Zmija and
zmej a snake or snake like monster, cold-blooded creatures that live
below ground or in the underworld.
Now let’s review the characteristics and basic concepts associated with
the earth.
1. It is able to bear fruit ?Fruitfulness
2. Richness of the Soil ? Plod ? Pluto
Only a fruitful earth will bear “agricultural riches” associated with
the god Pluto.
The word Pluto is closely related to the Macedonian word Plod or Plodo.
In older versions of the Slavonic languages the letters and sounds of o
and u were interchangeable. This is significant because if we replace
the current letter ‘o’ with ‘u‘, we obtain Pludo. By the way, it is
important to mention here that Pluto’s original name, or more precisely,
one of Pluto’s older names is “Ploto”.
The word Plodo is part of a very large family of words many of which are
functionally related in a language concept.
The earth contains all the ingredients and ability to nourish life which
is planted into it. This is reflected and expressed in the words “Plodna
Zemja” or “fruitful earth” .This only happens when the earth’s two
attributes “fruitfulness and richness of soil” come together.
We know that everything that is alive bears fruit. Females (woman,
Zhena) must be “fruitful” as well as be impregnated with a seed at the
proper time or lunar cycle, in order to bear offspring and perpetuate life.
The seeds of every plant, when planted at the proper time (the spring),
will be nourished by the falling rain or Dos / Dosdoi, as we call it in
Macedonian. Coincidentally, the original name of Demeter was Doi (Doi)
and Dos (Dos).
Also from the Homeric poems we know that Doine (Doine - qoine) means
“feeding, nourishing”.
Again according to Homer, when the goddess Demeter came to earth to
search for her daughter she used the name Doi.
There is also one important fact that I would like to mention at his
point. According to one Macedonian tradition, which by the way is still
practiced to this day in remote parts of Macedonia, there is a chant
attributed to Doi that goes something like this;
“.. Doi -dole –Doidule-
Dozdo da zavrne.
Da na doi zemlata…”
These are actual words chanted to the rain goddess asking her to make it
rain (Dos and Dozd) so that the earth can be nourished and the crops
will grow and bear fruit.
It is important at this point to mention that Persephone, Demeter’s
daughter was also known by an older name as “Preseffeta” which in
Macedonian means “to bloom”. As we know all living plants bloom in the
spring when Persephone is released by Hades and returns to the surface.
And now let’s look at Hades, the god of the underworld and his
relationship to the natural world.
Ghades - Hades
We all know that during the winter months in the world where the climate
is moderate the earth freezes and loses its ability to bear fruit. In
other words, Doimater or Demeter “cuts off the fruitfulness, richness
and gift of the soil” as Pluto (Plodo), the richness of the soil escapes
into the underworld and becomes his brother Hades (Ghades).
Hades renews himself as he again snatches Demeter’s daughter who
symbolizes spring and summer, the warm seasons, and takes her below the
earth for another cycle. Hades’ renewal brings the end of the warm
season and the beginning of the cold one. For the farmers of old, Hades
was the “bad attribute” of the earth or the time when the soil lost its
Plod or ability to bear fruit. Hades is also associated with
decomposition, darkness and fear of the unknown.
Again, Ghades is a unique Slavonic word that does not exist in any other
European language. In most Slavonic cultures, the word Ghades is
associated with the snake but in Macedonian it could also mean something
bad, unpleasant, terrible, undesirable, or slimy.
Ghad
Ghadeno
Ghadesh
Se ghadi
To be continued.
The material in this article is the copyright property of Odyssey Belchevsky
June R Harton
2004-11-30 06:56:43 UTC
Permalink
"++" <***@erols.com> wrote in message news:tNWdnVx_INfoDTbcRVn-***@rcn.net...

Bwahahahahahaaa

Schneider, send him here to face truth , or better still why don't you?

:)


For those that didn't know....

One only has to look here to see that the Fyrom Slavic majority, like that
last poster, are simply West Bulgarians and have no connection to
'Macedonia' anything:

In a letter to Prof. Marin Drinov of May 25, 1888 Kuzman Shapkarev writes:
"But even stranger is the name Macedonians, which was imposed on us only 10
to 15 years ago by outsiders, and not as something by our own
intellectuals... Yet the people in Macedonia know nothing of that ancient
name, reintroduced today with a cunning aim on the one hand and a stupid one
on the other. They know the older word: "Bugari", although mispronounced:
they have even adopted it as peculiarly theirs, inapplicable to other
Bulgarians. You can find more about this in the introduction to the booklets
I am sending you. They call their own Macedono-Bulgarian dialect the
"Bugarski language", while the rest of the Bulgarian dialects they refer to
as the "Shopski language". (Makedonski pregled, IX, 2, 1934, p. 55; the
original letter is kept in the Marin Drinov Museum in Sofia, and it is
available for examination and study)
Here is the text in the original:

"No pochudno e imeto Makedonci, koeto naskoro, edvay predi 10-15 godini, ni
natrapiha i to otvqn, a ne kakto nyakoi mislyat ot samata nasha
inteligenciya... Narodqt obache v Makedoniya ne znae nishto za tova
arhaichesko, a dnes, s lukava cel ot edna strana, s glupeshka ot druga,
podnoveno prozvishte; toy si znae postaroto: Bugari, makar i nepravilno
proiznasyano, daje osvoyava si go kato sobstveno i preimushtestveno svoe,
nejeli za drugite Bqlgari. Za tova shte vidite i v predgovora na izpratenite
mi knijici. Toy naricha Bugarski ezik svoeto Makaedono-bqlgarsko narechie,
kogato drugite bqlgarski narechiya naricha Shopski."


And here:


Reference source for Gotse Delchev's numerous utterings of 'We are
Bulgarians'......

http://www.ucc.ie/staff/jprodr/macedonia/macmodnat2.html

Even Gotse Delchev, the famous Macedonian revolutionary leader, whose nom de
guerre was Ahil (Achilles), refers to "the Slavs of Macedonia as
'Bulgarians' in an offhanded manner without seeming to indicate that such a
designation was a point of contention" (Perry 1988:23).
In his correspondence Gotse Delchev often states clearly and simply, "We are
Bulgarians" (MacDermott 1978:192,273).


And here:


For fair use only.

http://members.tripod.com/~dimobetchev/documents/ilinden.htm

" Considering the critical and terrible situation that the Bulgarian
population of the Bitola Vilayet found itself in and following the ravages
and cruelties done by the Turkish troops and irregulars, ... considering
the fact that everything Bulgarian runs the risk of perishing and
disappearing without a trace because of violence, hunger, and the upcoming
misery, the Head Quarters finds it to be its obligation to draw the
attention of the respected Bulgarian government to the pernicious
consequences vis-a-vis the Bulgarian nation, in case the latter does not
fulfill its duty towards its brethren of race here in an imposing fashion
which is necessary by virtue of the present ordeal for the common Bulgarian
Fatherland...

...Being in command of our people's movement, we appeal to you on behalf of
the enslaved Bulgarian to help him in the most effective way - by waging
war.We believe that the response of the people in free Bulgaria will be the
same.

... No bulgarian school is opened, neither will it be opened... Nobody
thinks of education when he is outlawed by the state because he bears the
name Bulgar...


Waiting for your patriotic intervention, we are pleased to inform you that
we have in our disposition the armed forces we have spared by now.

The Head Quarters of the Ilinden Uprising"

Damian GRUEV, Boris SARAFOV, Atanas LOZANTCHEV

This memorandum was handed to Dr.Kozhuharov, the Bulgarian consul in Bitola,

and transmitted by him to the government in Sofia with report N441 from
September 17th, 1903. "

And here:


http://www.bulgaria.com/VMRO/document.htm

http://www.bulgaria.com/VMRO/documen1.htm

http://www.bulgaria.com/VMRO/documen2.htm

http://www.bulgaria.com/VMRO/documen3.htm

http://www.bulgaria.com/VMRO/drzhava.htm

http://www.bulgaria.com/VMRO/exarchy.htm

http://w3.tyenet.com/kozlich/mapovska4a.htm

And finally here

http://www.bulgaria.com/VMRO/bitola06.htm

http://www.historymuseum.org/items.php3?nid=199&name=ochrid



from: Spirit of Truth

(using June's e-mail to communicate to you)!
Anastassios Retzios
2004-11-30 19:35:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by ++
Post by Anastassios Retzios <>
Has anybody heard of anything more ridiculous than this??? I mean,
this is stuff of high comedy!!!
If you think so, then why? And why not copy to Odi Belcevski, a very
earnest man?
Listen, if you really believe that there is something "earnest" in
this posting, discussing this with you would be a dreadful waste of my
time. When you have somebody who claims that the term "Hades" (which
occurs in very early Greek) came from the slavonic "Ghades" then this
is staff of high comedy. You cannot be serious and this is absolutely
stupid!

ADR

PS: Poor Homer and Hesiod did not know that they new Slavic!!!
++
2004-11-30 20:22:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Anastassios Retzios
Post by ++
Post by Anastassios Retzios <>
Has anybody heard of anything more ridiculous than this??? I mean,
this is stuff of high comedy!!!
If you think so, then why? And why not copy to Odi Belcevski, a very
earnest man?
Listen, if you really believe that there is something "earnest" in
this posting, discussing this with you would be a dreadful waste of my
time. When you have somebody who claims that the term "Hades" (which
occurs in very early Greek) came from the slavonic "Ghades" then this
is staff of high comedy. You cannot be serious and this is absolutely
stupid!
Macedonian is an indo-european language. No reason why both Macedonian
and Greek couldn't have shared root words
Post by Anastassios Retzios
ADR
PS: Poor Homer and Hesiod did not know that they new Slavic!!!
Anastassios Retzios
2004-12-01 03:56:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by ++
Post by Anastassios Retzios
Post by ++
Post by Anastassios Retzios <>
Has anybody heard of anything more ridiculous than this??? I mean,
this is stuff of high comedy!!!
If you think so, then why? And why not copy to Odi Belcevski, a very
earnest man?
Listen, if you really believe that there is something "earnest" in
this posting, discussing this with you would be a dreadful waste of my
time. When you have somebody who claims that the term "Hades" (which
occurs in very early Greek) came from the slavonic "Ghades" then this
is staff of high comedy. You cannot be serious and this is absolutely
stupid!
Macedonian is an indo-european language. No reason why both Macedonian
and Greek couldn't have shared root words
I hardly doubt that Hades is an Indoeuropean root word (most of the
elements of ancient Greek religion related to earth-based deities and
the mysteries, such as Demeter, Persephone, Hades, etc were pre-Greek,
part of the religion of the population that the Greeks found in the
area when they arrived there at about 2000 BC). Indoeuropean gods
(including Slavic gods) were gods of the sky, thunder and clouds. In
addition, why is it important to devise a whole new religion for the
Slavs when we know a lot about their religion from classical
historians??

To add gauffeau to loud laughter, your "self-taught" linguist -but
earnest man, nevertheless- proclaims that the word Ghades is unique to
Slavic languages. Possibly, but Hades is not derived from it. The
word was in ordinary use in Greece thousands of years prior to any
Slav even crossing the Danube!!!

ADR
George S. Tsapanos
2004-12-01 12:46:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Anastassios Retzios
hardly doubt that Hades is an Indoeuropean root word (most of the
elements of ancient Greek religion related to earth-based deities and
the mysteries, such as Demeter, Persephone, Hades, etc were pre-Greek,>part of
the religion of the population that the Greeks found in the>area when they
arrived there at about 2000 BC). Indoeuropean gods
Post by Anastassios Retzios
(including Slavic gods) were gods of the sky, thunder and clouds. >
And so........the autochthonous people of Dispilio, 7350 years ago, have been
waiting for the "Greeks" to discover them 3250 years later.
One has to wonder, why Anastassios' "Greeks" are named as such or what made
them Hellenes.
Maybe the autochthonous people living in the Hellenic peninsula already were
responcible for the Hellenization of these "Greeks",the same autochthonous
having the ability and knowledge to travel all over the Mediterranean (since
Obsedian was found in abondant quantities in Dispilio, obsedian that originally
existed only in the Aegean islands), or their existance in the same area where
Deucalion and Hellen gave birth to the Nation of the Hellenes!
In any way, Anastassios theory about the "Greeks" arriving in the Hellenic
peninsula "at about 2000 BC" has been proven as a LIE.
Time for Anastassios to explain to us, where was originated the name of these
"Greeks" that arrived in Hellas at about 2000 B.C. while the people in there at
the same time were already known as GRAIOI and HELLENES.



Regards to all ..................L.
"Vlachs, The Autochthonous
Of the Hellenic Peninsula".
Anastassios Retzios
2004-12-01 19:00:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by George S. Tsapanos
Post by Anastassios Retzios
hardly doubt that Hades is an Indoeuropean root word (most of the
elements of ancient Greek religion related to earth-based deities and
the mysteries, such as Demeter, Persephone, Hades, etc were pre-Greek,>part of
the religion of the population that the Greeks found in the>area when they
arrived there at about 2000 BC). Indoeuropean gods
Post by Anastassios Retzios
(including Slavic gods) were gods of the sky, thunder and clouds. >
And so........the autochthonous people of Dispilio, 7350 years ago, have been
waiting for the "Greeks" to discover them 3250 years later.
One has to wonder, why Anastassios' "Greeks" are named as such or what made
them Hellenes.
Maybe the autochthonous people living in the Hellenic peninsula already were
responcible for the Hellenization of these "Greeks",the same autochthonous
having the ability and knowledge to travel all over the Mediterranean (since
Obsedian was found in abondant quantities in Dispilio, obsedian that originally
existed only in the Aegean islands), or their existance in the same area where
Deucalion and Hellen gave birth to the Nation of the Hellenes!
In any way, Anastassios theory about the "Greeks" arriving in the Hellenic
peninsula "at about 2000 BC" has been proven as a LIE.
Time for Anastassios to explain to us, where was originated the name of these
"Greeks" that arrived in Hellas at about 2000 B.C. while the people in there at
the same time were already known as GRAIOI and HELLENES.
There is just one problem with all your theories, George. Facts get
in the way!! In fact, we have a very good idea of the culture of the
inhabitants of Greece prior to the arrival of the Greeks and there is
a dramatic discontinuity. I would suggest that you read in detail the
archaeology of Orchomenos.

As what is a proven lie, George....you are. What I am stating here
are the facts as they are included in every major or minor text on
ancient Greek history. If you want me to take you seriously, go and
publish your theories in scientific journals and, if they are
accepted, they would become the established version of history. Now,
all you can do is kvetch in these forums without supplying any data,
where as the archeaological record on what I have stated is long with
thousands of excavated sites in island and mainland Greece.

ADR
George S. Tsapanos
2004-12-01 20:06:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Anastassios Retzios
There is just one problem with all your theories, George. Facts get
in the way!! In fact, we have a very good idea of the culture of the
inhabitants of Greece prior to the arrival of the Greeks and there is
a dramatic discontinuity. I would suggest that you read in detail the
archaeology of Orchomenos.>
Orchomenos was NOT Hellas, if you know what I mean.
Post by Anastassios Retzios
As what is a proven lie, George....you are. What I am stating here
are the facts as they are included in every major or minor text on
ancient Greek history. If you want me to take you seriously, go and
publish your theories in scientific journals and, if they are
accepted, they would become the established version of history. Now,
all you can do is kvetch in these forums without supplying any data,
where as the archeaological record on what I have stated is long with
thousands of excavated sites in island and mainland Greece.
ADR>
Stop the bullshiting around in here. The only "major or minor" history texts
are the ones red by you, wanting as Hellenes the Africans and the Asians of the
South.
One had to wonder why all the money for arcaeological searches go to the SOUTH,
the Aegean and Crete, when the Hellenes are children of the NORTH, children
from Epirus, Makedonia, and Thessaly.
PRECISELY THE FIRST HELLENES, Achilles' son Neoptolemus and company did NOT
return to their people to the SOUTH, they returned to their people in Epirus,
they RETURNED to the MOLLOSIANS.
The Hellenes were the MAKEDONIANS, and not people from a medieval Genoa or
Florence or Venice buiding towers all over Peloponnesos.
All your excavations are attesting to one and only one thing, the people from
the SOUTH were DIFFERENT THAN THE PEOPLE OF THE NORTH.
The SOUTHERNERS were the LEFT-OVERS of other civilizations and they were
HELLENIZED after the final arrival of the HERAKLEIDES.
Danaans, Achaeans, Athenians, Minoans, Aegeans, might have been civilized, but
they did NOT BECOME HELLENES, till AFTER THE ARRIVAL OF THE TRUE HELLENES.
The GODS, the HELLENIC GODS were born in DION in the mountain OLYMPUS and not
in AFRICA, in LIBYA and INDIA.
BLACK ATHENA was written for people like YOU, keep ignoring the TRUE origins of
the HELLENES, wanting them as children from another Continent, wanting them
from ASIA and AFRICA.
No wonder everyone wants a piece of our country!


Regards to all ..................L.
"Vlachs, The Autochthonous
Of the Hellenic Peninsula".
Pres George W. Bush
2004-12-01 23:56:22 UTC
Permalink
Glad to see your masters serving their toadies well. Macedonia --
recognized by the most POWERFUL NATION in the history of man. (Occupied
Macedonia also recognized as well).
--
Regards,

President George W. Bush
The White House
Washington, DC
United States of America
Post by George S. Tsapanos
Post by Anastassios Retzios
There is just one problem with all your theories, George. Facts get
in the way!! In fact, we have a very good idea of the culture of the
inhabitants of Greece prior to the arrival of the Greeks and there is
a dramatic discontinuity. I would suggest that you read in detail the
archaeology of Orchomenos.>
Orchomenos was NOT Hellas, if you know what I mean.
Post by Anastassios Retzios
As what is a proven lie, George....you are. What I am stating here
are the facts as they are included in every major or minor text on
ancient Greek history. If you want me to take you seriously, go and
publish your theories in scientific journals and, if they are
accepted, they would become the established version of history. Now,
all you can do is kvetch in these forums without supplying any data,
where as the archeaological record on what I have stated is long with
thousands of excavated sites in island and mainland Greece.
ADR>
Stop the bullshiting around in here. The only "major or minor" history texts
are the ones red by you, wanting as Hellenes the Africans and the Asians of the
South.
One had to wonder why all the money for arcaeological searches go to the SOUTH,
the Aegean and Crete, when the Hellenes are children of the NORTH, children
from Epirus, Makedonia, and Thessaly.
PRECISELY THE FIRST HELLENES, Achilles' son Neoptolemus and company did NOT
return to their people to the SOUTH, they returned to their people in Epirus,
they RETURNED to the MOLLOSIANS.
The Hellenes were the MAKEDONIANS, and not people from a medieval Genoa or
Florence or Venice buiding towers all over Peloponnesos.
All your excavations are attesting to one and only one thing, the people from
the SOUTH were DIFFERENT THAN THE PEOPLE OF THE NORTH.
The SOUTHERNERS were the LEFT-OVERS of other civilizations and they were
HELLENIZED after the final arrival of the HERAKLEIDES.
Danaans, Achaeans, Athenians, Minoans, Aegeans, might have been civilized, but
they did NOT BECOME HELLENES, till AFTER THE ARRIVAL OF THE TRUE HELLENES.
The GODS, the HELLENIC GODS were born in DION in the mountain OLYMPUS and not
in AFRICA, in LIBYA and INDIA.
BLACK ATHENA was written for people like YOU, keep ignoring the TRUE origins of
the HELLENES, wanting them as children from another Continent, wanting them
from ASIA and AFRICA.
No wonder everyone wants a piece of our country!
Regards to all ..................L.
"Vlachs, The Autochthonous
Of the Hellenic Peninsula".
Anastassios Retzios
2004-12-02 03:21:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by George S. Tsapanos
Post by Anastassios Retzios
There is just one problem with all your theories, George. Facts get
in the way!! In fact, we have a very good idea of the culture of the
inhabitants of Greece prior to the arrival of the Greeks and there is
a dramatic discontinuity. I would suggest that you read in detail the
archaeology of Orchomenos.>
Orchomenos was NOT Hellas, if you know what I mean.
No George, I do not know what you mean. Why don't you make clear to
all of us your racist views (which are in full flight below)
Post by George S. Tsapanos
Post by Anastassios Retzios
As what is a proven lie, George....you are. What I am stating here
are the facts as they are included in every major or minor text on
ancient Greek history. If you want me to take you seriously, go and
publish your theories in scientific journals and, if they are
accepted, they would become the established version of history. Now,
all you can do is kvetch in these forums without supplying any data,
where as the archeaological record on what I have stated is long with
thousands of excavated sites in island and mainland Greece.
ADR>
Stop the bullshiting around in here. The only "major or minor" history texts
are the ones red by you, wanting as Hellenes the Africans and the Asians of the
South.
One had to wonder why all the money for arcaeological searches go to the SOUTH,
the Aegean and Crete, when the Hellenes are children of the NORTH, children
from Epirus, Makedonia, and Thessaly.
PRECISELY THE FIRST HELLENES, Achilles' son Neoptolemus and company did NOT
return to their people to the SOUTH, they returned to their people in Epirus,
they RETURNED to the MOLLOSIANS.
Sorry, I did not realize that Phthia was in Epirus. Stupid me.
Post by George S. Tsapanos
The Hellenes were the MAKEDONIANS, and not people from a medieval Genoa or
Florence or Venice buiding towers all over Peloponnesos.
What do medieval events have to do with all of these, George? Are you
losing it?
Post by George S. Tsapanos
All your excavations are attesting to one and only one thing, the people from
the SOUTH were DIFFERENT THAN THE PEOPLE OF THE NORTH.
The SOUTHERNERS were the LEFT-OVERS of other civilizations and they were
HELLENIZED after the final arrival of the HERAKLEIDES.
Again, George, facts have a peculiar way of surfacing when you least
want them. Unfortunately for you and your silly theories, it was in
the palaces of these Achaeans and Danaans that Linear B tablets in
very decent Greek (most dating from between 1500 to 1300 BC) were
found which makes them very much Greeeks (if you know what I mean, to
use one of your phrases). And if you keep insisting in using the myth
of the Herakleidai, then use all of the myth, not what fits your silly
theory. The Herakleidai were from Argos and there were therefore
Achaeans!!!
Post by George S. Tsapanos
Danaans, Achaeans, Athenians, Minoans, Aegeans, might have been civilized, but
they did NOT BECOME HELLENES, till AFTER THE ARRIVAL OF THE TRUE HELLENES.
The GODS, the HELLENIC GODS were born in DION in the mountain OLYMPUS and not
in AFRICA, in LIBYA and INDIA.
I wonder how come Homer did not know this writing so many years after
the "advent of the Herakleidai" and also how come counteless
generations of Greeeks reading Homer did not get the clues that you
got!!!
Post by George S. Tsapanos
BLACK ATHENA was written for people like YOU, keep ignoring the TRUE origins of
the HELLENES, wanting them as children from another Continent, wanting them
from ASIA and AFRICA.
No wonder everyone wants a piece of our country!
Black Athena is another stupid theory, very much like yours. I never
stated that the Greeks arrived in Greece from Africa. Where did you
read this? The Greeks were one of the Indoeuropean peoples who left
the steppes at about 3000 BC moving westwards. We can easily trace
the Indoeuropeans from their linguistic development and religion (the
primary god was always the God of thunder, as befitting people of the
steppes).

ADR
George S. Tsapanos
2004-12-02 14:33:58 UTC
Permalink
No George, I do not know what you mean. Why don't you make clear to>all of us
your racist views (which are in full flight below)>

Orchomenos BECAME Hellenic after the descent of the Hellenes.
The entire peninsula was Hellenized from the North to the South and not the
other way around.
Sorry, I did not realize that Phthia was in Epirus. Stupid me.>
What you should be sorry about is the fact that you refuse to admit the
evident.
Achilles and his Myrmidons were from EPIRUS, they arrived in the island of
Aegina, from there Thessaly became their kingdom and after the Trojan War they
RETURNED to their ORIGINAL HOME, they returned to Epirus, to their relatives
the MOLLOSIANS.
What do medieval events have to do with all of these, George? Are you
losing it?>
Where from you want the Southerners to be once the original stock escaped into
the mountains?
Again, George, facts have a peculiar way of surfacing when you least
want them. Unfortunately for you and your silly theories, it was in
the palaces of these Achaeans and Danaans that Linear B tablets in
very decent Greek (most dating from between 1500 to 1300 BC) were
found which makes them very much Greeeks (if you know what I mean, to>use one
of your phrases). And if you keep insisting in using the myth
of the Herakleidai, then use all of the myth, not what fits your silly
theory. The Herakleidai were from Argos and there were therefore
Achaeans!!!>
The Herakleides were from the NORTHERN ARGOS not from the PELOPONNESIAN one.
How many times I told you to read Herodotus?
Herakles went from the North to the South.
As for Linear B, don't hold your breath too long, there are too many things
before making it HELLENIC.So far has been catalogized as a POSSIBLE
PRE-HELLENIC WRITING OF CRETE AND PELOPONNESOS, thats it, not even HELLENIC.
How many references you wish for this one?
I wonder how come Homer did not know this writing so many years after
the "advent of the Herakleidai" and also how come counteless
generations of Greeeks reading Homer did not get the clues that you
got!!!>
I wonder how many times I posted it in front of your nose and you refuse like a
mule to see the truth.
Here it is one more time from THUKIDIDIS, speaking of HOMER,
THUKIDIDIS BOOK 1-3. This time I am going to post it with capital letters, so
your myopic eyes might read it.

AND HOMER IS THE BEST EVIDENCE;BORN LONG AFTER THE TROJAN WAR, HE NEVER USES
THIS TERM COLLECTIVELY NOR FOR ANY EXCEPT ACHILLES' FOLLOWERS FROM PHTIOTIS (
PRECISELY THE FIRST -------HELLENES------) BUT REFERS IN HIS POEMS TO DANAANS,
ARGIVES, AND ACHAEANS.

During the Trojan War, the ONLY HELLENES were the MYRMIDONS, the same people
that RETURNED TO THEIR KIN IN EPIRUS, BY THE MOLOSSIANS.
And when, AFTER THE TROJAN WAR, the Herakleides conquered SOUTHERN
HELLAS-ATHENS-PELOPONNESOS, they made the rest of the people HELLENES.

The ATHENIANS were of PELASGIAN ORIGINS, they were not even HELLENES, they
became HELLENES after the arrival od the NORTHERNERS.

And while those HELLENES ( ETHNOS HELLENIKON), were going SOUTH, they had to
fight the CADMEIANS, and other people living also in ORCHOMENOS.
During their descent, and while they arrived in the PINDUS mountains, they were
RENAMED AS NATION OF THE MAKEDONIANS.

Few of them remained in there, INCLUDING ARGOS ORESTIKON, from where later
PERDIKKAS and his brothers established the KIGDOM OF THE MAKEDONIANS.

Others, made it to Athens, Hellenized the highly sofisticated and civilized
people in there, and kep going all the way to PELOPONNESOS, where finally they
were renamed as DORIANS.

From there one, FINALLY, OUR COMMON HISTORY AS HELLENES BEGINS.
Black Athena is another stupid theory, very much like yours. I never
stated that the Greeks arrived in Greece from Africa. Where did you
read this? The Greeks were one of the Indoeuropean peoples who left
the steppes at about 3000 BC moving westwards. We can easily trace
the Indoeuropeans from their linguistic development and religion (the
primary god was always the God of thunder, as befitting people of the
steppes).>
ADR>
And what is this INDO-EUROPEAN theory, other than that, JUST A THEORY?
They began that the craddle of the INDO-EUROPEANS and their COMMON LANGUAGE
was deep in INDIA.
These days, they moved such craddle of civilization in SOUTHERN UKRAINE in
KRIMAIA.
Pretty soon they'll tell us that DISPILIO was indeed the craddle of
INDO-EUROPAISM.
If the Greeks were people of the STEPPES, then who were the HELLENES LIVING IN
DODONA, AND WHO WERE THE PEOPLE IN DISPILIO 7350 B.C.

Why you want to make the Greeks as ASIAN PEOPLE, when they were people living
in Greece already by 7350 B.C. ?

Have you ever think what civilization can accomplish in more than 4350 years?
Thats the difference between MY PEOPLE EXISTING IN HELLAS, AND YOUR PEOPLE
ARRIVING FROM THE STEPPES OF ASIA.
Anastassios Retzios
2004-12-02 19:58:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by George S. Tsapanos
No George, I do not know what you mean. Why don't you make clear to>all of us
your racist views (which are in full flight below)>
Orchomenos BECAME Hellenic after the descent of the Hellenes.
The entire peninsula was Hellenized from the North to the South and not the
other way around.
Well, I have no problems with the direction and I agree that
Orchomenos became Hellenic after the arrival of the Hellenes but the
point is here who were the Hellenes.
Post by George S. Tsapanos
Sorry, I did not realize that Phthia was in Epirus. Stupid me.>
What you should be sorry about is the fact that you refuse to admit the
evident.
Achilles and his Myrmidons were from EPIRUS, they arrived in the island of
Aegina, from there Thessaly became their kingdom and after the Trojan War they
RETURNED to their ORIGINAL HOME, they returned to Epirus, to their relatives
the MOLLOSIANS.
So, Phthia was in Epirus??? Yes or no?
Post by George S. Tsapanos
Again, George, facts have a peculiar way of surfacing when you least
want them. Unfortunately for you and your silly theories, it was in
the palaces of these Achaeans and Danaans that Linear B tablets in
very decent Greek (most dating from between 1500 to 1300 BC) were
found which makes them very much Greeeks (if you know what I mean, to>use one
of your phrases). And if you keep insisting in using the myth
of the Herakleidai, then use all of the myth, not what fits your silly
theory. The Herakleidai were from Argos and there were therefore
Achaeans!!!>
The Herakleides were from the NORTHERN ARGOS not from the PELOPONNESIAN one.
How many times I told you to read Herodotus?
Do not make me laugh, George. The sons of Hercules were chased out of
Argos by Eurystheus and sought refuge in Athens. Later they went to
Thessaly from which Hyllus attempted an abortive conquest of Argos
again...the myth goes on and on and there is no reference to any
"northern" Argos. And Herodotus is not the only source on
Heracleidai. You should read Pausanias and Euripides (Heracleidai).
So, stop blowing hot air, you are convincing nobody.
Post by George S. Tsapanos
Herakles went from the North to the South.
As for Linear B, don't hold your breath too long, there are too many things
before making it HELLENIC.So far has been catalogized as a POSSIBLE
PRE-HELLENIC WRITING OF CRETE AND PELOPONNESOS, thats it, not even HELLENIC.
How many references you wish for this one?
Man, you have to update your library. I need no references on this, I
can supply thousands to you. If you want to put your head in the sand,
this is just fine, do it.
Post by George S. Tsapanos
I wonder how come Homer did not know this writing so many years after
the "advent of the Herakleidai" and also how come counteless
generations of Greeeks reading Homer did not get the clues that you
got!!!>
During the Trojan War, the ONLY HELLENES were the MYRMIDONS, the same people
that RETURNED TO THEIR KIN IN EPIRUS, BY THE MOLOSSIANS.
And when, AFTER THE TROJAN WAR, the Herakleides conquered SOUTHERN
HELLAS-ATHENS-PELOPONNESOS, they made the rest of the people HELLENES.
Listen George and get it through your thick head. First of all, Homer
composed his poems in the 8th century BC (or probably early 7th), not
around 1250 BC when the Trojan war supposedly happened. By the time
the poems were being written, the descent of the Dorians (if there was
such a thing) was already 500 years old. If the term Hellene was
established because of the descent of the Dorians (or Heracleidai for
you), then Homer would have known only Hellenes, not Achaeans and
Danaans (as there were no written historical accounts). Nor would he
had been able to make a living by going from court to court to sing
the accomplishments of the Achaeans and Danaans if the people in these
courts did not identify with them. So, as Thucydides makes it clear
to you, the term Hellene was unknown before the 7th century BC (and
this is 500 years later than the descent of the Dorians). No
Heracleidai were moving into Greece at about 650 BC, when the term
"Hellene" first started coming into use. There are a number of
theories of how the term was spread and I have provided them to you,
but the reality is that nobody knows.
Post by George S. Tsapanos
The ATHENIANS were of PELASGIAN ORIGINS, they were not even HELLENES, they
became HELLENES after the arrival od the NORTHERNERS.
This is a very selective reading of history, George. According to
mythology, the Athenians repelled the advancing Dorians. So, if they
did, how come they became Hellenized????
Post by George S. Tsapanos
And while those HELLENES ( ETHNOS HELLENIKON), were going SOUTH, they had to
fight the CADMEIANS, and other people living also in ORCHOMENOS.
During their descent, and while they arrived in the PINDUS mountains, they were
RENAMED AS NATION OF THE MAKEDONIANS.
Wow...do you make this as you go??? In fact, there is nothing in
Orchomenos in the 7th century BC but ruins!!!
Post by George S. Tsapanos
Few of them remained in there, INCLUDING ARGOS ORESTIKON, from where later
PERDIKKAS and his brothers established the KIGDOM OF THE MAKEDONIANS.
Oh, my god!!! where do you get these stupidities, George??? In fact,
the kingdom of Macedonia was established in the lower reaches of the
Aliakmon river (where its original capital, Aigai, was located). Only
later did the Argeads bring the northern area of Lynkestis under their
control and the kings of Lyngestis never claimed descent from Heracles
but from Corinth (and were known as the Bakchiads)
Post by George S. Tsapanos
Others, made it to Athens, Hellenized the highly sofisticated and civilized
people in there, and kep going all the way to PELOPONNESOS, where finally they
were renamed as DORIANS.
From there one, FINALLY, OUR COMMON HISTORY AS HELLENES BEGINS.
George, I know I would not be able to convince you to abandon these
stupid theories but it is nice to dream from time to time.
Post by George S. Tsapanos
Black Athena is another stupid theory, very much like yours. I never
stated that the Greeks arrived in Greece from Africa. Where did you
read this? The Greeks were one of the Indoeuropean peoples who left
the steppes at about 3000 BC moving westwards. We can easily trace
the Indoeuropeans from their linguistic development and religion (the
primary god was always the God of thunder, as befitting people of the
steppes).>
ADR>
And what is this INDO-EUROPEAN theory, other than that, JUST A THEORY?
They began that the craddle of the INDO-EUROPEANS and their COMMON LANGUAGE
was deep in INDIA.
Who said this? India was one of the destinations of the Indoeuropean
tribes. At no time did anybody state that anybody came from India.
Post by George S. Tsapanos
These days, they moved such craddle of civilization in SOUTHERN UKRAINE in
KRIMAIA.
Pretty soon they'll tell us that DISPILIO was indeed the craddle of
INDO-EUROPAISM.
Dispilio was just a typical lakeside neolithic settlement like many
uncovered so far in Europe and definitely not Indoeuropean.
Post by George S. Tsapanos
If the Greeks were people of the STEPPES, then who were the HELLENES LIVING IN
DODONA, AND WHO WERE THE PEOPLE IN DISPILIO 7350 B.C.
Beats me!!! The lakeside settlement of Dispilio is very similar to
many lakeside settlements of the same period discovered in the Alpine
area of Europe (where Dispilio belongs). Therefore, there was a
population spreading throughout the Alpine area with an identical
approach to settlements and living. But Dispilio (which was probably
abandoned by well before 2000 BC) was hardly the only settlement in
Greece prior to the advent of the Greeks. There were thriving
settlements in Thessaly, southern Greece and the islands (and, of
course, Minoan Crete) with unique pre-Greek civilizations.
Post by George S. Tsapanos
Why you want to make the Greeks as ASIAN PEOPLE, when they were people living
in Greece already by 7350 B.C. ?
What makes the people living in the steppes north of the Caspian sea
particularly Asian, and why does this matter at all? And it is not me
that is saying this George but about 100% of academic scholarship.
Post by George S. Tsapanos
Have you ever think what civilization can accomplish in more than 4350 years?
Thats the difference between MY PEOPLE EXISTING IN HELLAS, AND YOUR PEOPLE
ARRIVING FROM THE STEPPES OF ASIA.
I am not sure George that you even know who "your people" ever were.
Nobody does, that far back. But one thing is absolutely certain is
that the Greeks did indeed arrive from the Steppes of Asia and if you
do not like it, too tough!! It would be at least a consolation to you
that virtually everybody else in modern Europe (with the exemption of
the Basques) also came from the same steppes!!

ADR
George S. Tsapanos
2004-12-03 02:06:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Anastassios Retzios
Well, I have no problems with the direction and I agree that
Orchomenos became Hellenic after the arrival of the Hellenes but the
point is here who were the Hellenes.>
The Hellenes BEFORE the Trojan War were the people from around Dodona first.
Next became the MYRMIDONS with Achilles, PRECISELY THE ONLY HELLENES IN TROY.
These same Hellenes during their descent and once they arrived in the Pindus
range after they were kicked by the Cadmeians, they became known as
MAKEDONIANS, and later once in Peloponnesos as DORIANS.
Only AFTER the Trojan War (about 1250-1200 B.C.) and AFTER the DARK AGES, and
ONCE ALL THE INHABITANT OF THE PENINSULA BEGAN SPEAKING THE -----SAME
LANGUAGE----- ALL OF THEM BECAME KNOWN UNDER THE NAME HELLENES, even if an
Hellenic State never existed.
As Hellas and Hellenes were FINALLY known an ALLIANCE or if you prefare a
CONFEDERACY, including all the people living in the peninsula.
Such definition, during Alexander's times clearly INCLUDED THE SPARTANS,
however, the presents were from him and from the Hellenes fighting AGAINST the
Persians, but NOT FROM THE LAKEDAEMONIANS or the Hellenes fighting WITH the
Persians at their service for pay. Such COLLECTIVE name, lost its meaning after
the Roman time, including the term HELLAS, which was used to indicate various
lands to the North, however ALWAYS EXCLUDING PELOPONNESOS AND THE ISLANDS.
Post by Anastassios Retzios
So, Phthia was in Epirus??? Yes or no?>
NO, Phtia was around today's PHTIOTIS, the first place where the Hellenes lived
under Daukalion once they moved out of Dodona after the Diluge. After that at
the time of Dorus and HELLEN they moved around OSSA and OLYMPUS mountains in
the land of HISTIAEOTIS, from there, they were kicked out from the CADMEIANS,
and they arrived in PINDUS where part of them they were renamed as MAKEDONIANS,
and part of them kept going to PELOPONNESOS where they were renamed as DORIANS.
Homer, Herodotus, Strabo, Thukididis agree to all that.(as of ORCHOMENOS, there
are TWO, one in Sterea and one in Peloponnesos).
Post by Anastassios Retzios
Do not make me laugh, George. The sons of Hercules were chased out of>Argos
by Eurystheus and sought refuge in Athens. Later they went to
Post by Anastassios Retzios
Thessaly from which Hyllus attempted an abortive conquest of Argos
again...the myth goes on and on and there is no reference to any
"northern" Argos. And Herodotus is not the only source on
Heracleidai. You should read Pausanias and Euripides (Heracleidai).
So, stop blowing hot air, you are convincing nobody.>
They were chased out the FIRST TIME, during the times of KING THESEUS,
-----BEFORE THE TROJAN WAR----- when Theseus gave them a place to stay in
TRICORYTHUS.
Him and the HERAKLAEDES fought together against EYRYSTHEUS.
HYLLUS and the Heraklaedes invaded PELOPONNESOS, but they had return TOO EARLY,
Hyllus challenged the best of them, "if we lose we don't come back before 50
years", that was the deal.

However, the HERAKLAEDES RETURNED IN THE FOURTH GENERATION
UNDER------TEMENUS----- and they killed TISAMENES SON OF ORESTES.
This is the ARRIVAL IN MYCEANA OF THE UNCIVILIZED HELLENES FROM THE NORTH AND
THE CENTRAL PENINSULA, A PENINSULA THAT IT RENAMED AS ----HELLENIC-----ON A
MUCH LATER DATE.

SUCH INVASION BY THE HELLENES OF THE NORTH TO PELOPONNESOS TOOK PLACE AROUND
1100 B.C.-----------150-100 YEARS AFTER THE TROJAN WAR.
THIS INVASION AND THE ONE 100 YEARS LATER BROUGHT THE DARK AGES INTO GREECE IN
ORDER FOR GREECE TO BE RE-BORN 500 YEARS LATER AS ONE COUNTRY, SPEAKING ONE
LANGUAGE. THE UNCULTERED PATRIARCHICAL MOUNTAINEERS FROM THE NORTH, FORMED WITH
THE VERY CIVILIZED PEOPLE OF THE SOUTH A BLEND, AND SUCH BLEND WAS NAMED AFTER
THE WINNERS, AFTER THE HELLENES.
Post by Anastassios Retzios
Man, you have to update your library. I need no references on this, I
can supply thousands to you. If you want to put your head in the sand,
this is just fine, do it.>
Read Paysanias IV, 3.3. Thukididis, i-12.3. Herodotus, 1-56.

The town of ARGOS was given to TEMENUS patriarch of the TEMENIDES, including
PERDIKKAS and his brothers, whom from ILLYRIA went to ARGOS and from there to
LEVAIA and established the first MAKEDONIAN KINGDOM OF THE TEMEMIDES.
But.........that ARGOS in question was the ARGOS ORESTIKON next to KASTORIA,
NEXT TO DISPILIO.
The entire area was known as ORESTIAS-ORESTIADA to our days, while the Eastern
part of it, became known as K-ORESTIAS=KORESTIA
Post by Anastassios Retzios
Listen George and get it through your thick head. First of all, Homer
composed his poems in the 8th century BC (or probably early 7th), not
around 1250 BC when the Trojan war supposedly happened. By the time
the poems were being written, the descent of the Dorians (if there was
such a thing) was already 500 years old. If the term Hellene was
established because of the descent of the Dorians (or Heracleidai for
you), then Homer would have known only Hellenes, not Achaeans and
Danaans (as there were no written historical accounts). Nor would he
had been able to make a living by going from court to court to sing
the accomplishments of the Achaeans and Danaans if
the people in these>courts did not identify with them. So, as Thucydides
makes it clear>to you, the term Hellene was unknown before the 7th century BC
(and>this is 500 years later than the descent of the Dorians). No>Heracleidai
were moving into Greece at about 650 BC, when the term>"Hellene" first started
coming into use. There are a number of>theories of how the term was spread and
I have
Post by Anastassios Retzios
provided them to you,>but the reality is that nobody knows.>
The term Hellenes was EXISTING during the Trojan War.
HELLENES were existing during the TROJAN War and they were ACHILLES and his
MYRMIDONS.
The rest of the forces were known by other names.
Homer, also according to THUKIDIDIS, SEPARATES AND NAMES THE VARIOUS PEOPLE
-----PRECISELY------ BECAUSE THEY WERE NOT KNOWN AT THAT TIME BY THE COLLECTIVE
NAME OF HELLENES.

SUCH NAME WAS TAKEN BY ALL THE PEOPLE OF THE PENINSULA AFTER THE CONQUERING BY
THE HERAKLAEDES OF THE SOUTH AND AFTER ALL THOSE -----OTHER---- PEOPLE LEARN
AND SPOKE -----ONE AND THE SAME LANGUAGE-------.
Post by Anastassios Retzios
This is a very selective reading of history, George. According to
mythology, the Athenians repelled the advancing Dorians. So, if they
did, how come they became Hellenized????>
Read again your Mythology, THESEUS was an ALLY of the HERAKLAEDES, however
EURYSTEUS was their enemy.
EURYSTHEUS was the cause of the FIRST WAR BETWEEN PELOPONNESOS AND ATHENS.
When the Heraklaedes arrived in Pelopponnesos a PLAGUE BROKE OUT, because they
RETURNED too early, BEFORE THEIR DUE TIME.
Post by Anastassios Retzios
Wow...do you make this as you go??? In fact, there is nothing in
Orchomenos in the 7th century BC but ruins!!!>
WHICH Orchomenos?
Post by Anastassios Retzios
Oh, my god!!! where do you get these stupidities, George??? In fact,
the kingdom of Macedonia was established in the lower reaches of the
Aliakmon river (where its original capital, Aigai, was located). Only
later did the Argeads bring the northern area of Lynkestis under their
control and the kings of Lyngestis never claimed descent from Heracles
but from Corinth (and were known as the Bakchiads)>
If you ONLY SEARCH THE PLACE FROM WHERE PERDIKKAS LEFT, YOU'LL LEARN A LOT.
Aigai, is many GENERATIONS AFTER TEMENUS AND THE HERAKLAEDES.
Perdikkas began from the UPPER ALIAKMON, FROM ARGOS ORESTIKON NEXT TO ILLYRIA,
HE ARRIVED IN LEVAIA, THEN.....HE CROSSED OLYMPUS AND IN SUCH A WAY HE ARRIVED
TO THE DELTA OF THE ALIAKMON RIVER.

I USED TO HUNT ALL OVER AROUND THOSE PLACES.
READ THUKIDIDIS, READ HERODOTUS BOOK 8-137

".....This Alexander was descended, in the SEVENTH GENERATION, FROM PERDIKKAS
WHO WON THE LORDSHIP OF THE MAKEDONIANS IN THE FOLLOWING WAY
...................HAD BEEN EXPELLED FROM ARGOS AND HAD TAKEN REFUGE IN
ILLYRIA.........................
AND WENT TO THE TOWN OF LEBAEA.......................
Post by Anastassios Retzios
George, I know I would not be able to convince you to abandon these
stupid theories but it is nice to dream from time to time.>
Just open your eyes, before i begin thinking that you are an idiot.
Post by Anastassios Retzios
Who said this? India was one of the destinations of the Indoeuropean
tribes. At no time did anybody state that anybody came from India.>
Where was the ORIGINAL craddle of Indo-Europeans according to the theory 10-20
years ago?
Where it was 10-5- years ago.
Where it is today?
Post by Anastassios Retzios
Dispilio was just a typical lakeside neolithic settlement like many
uncovered so far in Europe and definitely not Indoeuropean.>
THANK GOD!
If there were people living in the place where Deucalion survived the diluge
and began the HELLENIC RACE, why you want the Hellenes to be Indo-Europeans and
have them ARRIVING IN HELLAS FROM ASIA?
If according to you following the Indo-European THEORY, the Hellenes were NOT
FROM HELLAS, BUT THEY ARRIVED IN THERE AND THEY WERE NAMED AS SUCH, THE
QUESTION IS, WHO OR WHAT WERE THE PEOPLE LIVING------ALREADY IN HELLAS-----4350
YEARS BEFORE THE ARRIVING OF THOSE ASIANS?

If as Hellenes you want those Indo-Europeans that THEORETICALLY ARRIVED FROM
ASIA, I want and consider as HELLENES the descendants of the people BEING IN
HELLAS 4350 YEARS BEFORE THE ARRIVING OF ANY ASIANS.
Post by Anastassios Retzios
Beats me!!! The lakeside settlement of Dispilio is very similar to
many lakeside settlements of the same period discovered in the Alpine
area of Europe (where Dispilio belongs). Therefore, there was a
population spreading throughout the Alpine area with an identical
approach to settlements and living. But Dispilio (which was probably
abandoned by well before 2000 BC) was hardly the only settlement in
Greece prior to the advent of the Greeks. There were thriving
settlements in Thessaly, southern Greece and the islands (and, of
course, Minoan Crete) with unique pre-Greek civilizations.>
AND THAT WHAT THEY WERE, PRE-GREEK CIVILIZATIONS.
WHILE MY PEOPLE IN DISPILIO THEY WERE THE PROTO-GREEKS.

FROM THESE SAME PROTO-GREEKS (since you wish to use this terminology), WERE
BORN THE HELLENES, WHO BECAME KNOWN AS MAKEDONIANS AND DORIANS, THE PEOPLE WHO
AFTER CONQUERING AND DESTROYING MYCAENA IN 1100 B.C., THEY ALSO CONQUERED THE
REST OF THE PEOPLE LIVING IN THE PENINSULA, IN ORDER 500 YEARS LATER, AND AFTER
ALL THESE PEOPLE BEGAN SPEAKING THE SAME LANGUAGE, WE-WE-WE-WE- BECAME KNOWN
COLLECTIVELY AS HELLENES.
THUKIDIDIS, BOOK ONE-3.
Post by Anastassios Retzios
What makes the people living in the steppes north of the Caspian sea
particularly Asian, and why does this matter at all? And it is not me
that is saying this George but about 100% of academic scholarship.>
Your Academic scholars, not mine.
Post by Anastassios Retzios
I am not sure George that you even know who "your people" ever were.
Nobody does, that far back. But one thing is absolutely certain is
that the Greeks did indeed arrive from the Steppes of Asia and if you
do not like it, too tough!! It would be at least a consolation to you
that virtually everybody else in modern Europe (with the exemption of
the Basques) also came from the same steppes!!
ADR>
The Greeks, are AUTOCHTHONOUS TO THE HELLENIC PENINSULA.

They took their name AFTER A STRONG PATRIARCHICAL TRIBE FROM THE NORTH,
PRECISELY THE HELLENES, CONQUERED THE SOUTHERNERS, PEOPLE FROM AROUND THE
MEDITERRANEAN.

FROM THIS UNION THAT TOOK PLACE AROUND 1100 B.C. WAS BORN THE HELLENIC NATION,
WHICH TOOK ITS NAME PRECISELY FROM HELLEN, SON OF DEUCALION, THE PATRIARCH OF
THE HELLENES, WHO LIVED AROUND DODONA, THE PLACE FROM WHERE THE HELLENES BEGAN
THEIR JOURNEY TO THE SOUTH FIRST, AND THEN TO THE REST OF THE WORLD.





Regards to all ..................L.
"Vlachs, The Autochthonous
Of the Hellenic Peninsula".
e***@search26.com
2004-12-07 10:25:59 UTC
Permalink
http://www.ardice.com/Regional/Europe/Greece/Prefectures/Attica/Aegina/
++
2004-12-02 06:44:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by George S. Tsapanos
Post by Anastassios Retzios
There is just one problem with all your theories, George. Facts get
in the way!! In fact, we have a very good idea of the culture of the
inhabitants of Greece prior to the arrival of the Greeks and there is
a dramatic discontinuity. I would suggest that you read in detail the
archaeology of Orchomenos.>
Orchomenos was NOT Hellas, if you know what I mean.
Post by Anastassios Retzios
As what is a proven lie, George....you are. What I am stating here
are the facts as they are included in every major or minor text on
ancient Greek history. If you want me to take you seriously, go and
publish your theories in scientific journals and, if they are
accepted, they would become the established version of history. Now,
all you can do is kvetch in these forums without supplying any data,
where as the archeaological record on what I have stated is long with
thousands of excavated sites in island and mainland Greece.
ADR>
Stop the bullshiting around in here. The only "major or minor" history texts
are the ones red by you, wanting as Hellenes the Africans and the Asians of the
South.
One had to wonder why all the money for arcaeological searches go to the SOUTH,
the Aegean and Crete, when the Hellenes are children of the NORTH, children
from Epirus, Makedonia, and Thessaly.
PRECISELY THE FIRST HELLENES, Achilles' son Neoptolemus and company did NOT
return to their people to the SOUTH, they returned to their people in Epirus,
they RETURNED to the MOLLOSIANS.
The Hellenes were the MAKEDONIANS, and not people from a medieval Genoa or
Florence or Venice buiding towers all over Peloponnesos.
All your excavations are attesting to one and only one thing, the people from
the SOUTH were DIFFERENT THAN THE PEOPLE OF THE NORTH.
The SOUTHERNERS were the LEFT-OVERS of other civilizations and they were
HELLENIZED after the final arrival of the HERAKLEIDES.
Danaans, Achaeans, Athenians, Minoans, Aegeans, might have been civilized, but
they did NOT BECOME HELLENES, till AFTER THE ARRIVAL OF THE TRUE HELLENES.
The GODS, the HELLENIC GODS were born in DION in the mountain OLYMPUS and not
in AFRICA, in LIBYA and INDIA.
BLACK ATHENA was written for people like YOU, keep ignoring the TRUE origins of
the HELLENES, wanting them as children from another Continent, wanting them
from ASIA and AFRICA.
No wonder everyone wants a piece of our country!
Regards to all ..................L.
"Vlachs, The Autochthonous
Of the Hellenic Peninsula".
Oddly enough, George, genetic studies have found only two peoples with
any relationship to Macedonian Macedonians - Cretans and so-called
"oriental" Jews. Both make sense when you think about the history.
Greeks, on the other hand, were found related to Fulani, Yoruba and
other cattle tending tribes in Africa. When I saw them dance at a
festival on the Mall in Washington, the very beautiful women were
wearing what appeared to be Greek headdresses - but made out of
seashells. They are not sea people.
ERIC
2004-12-02 07:15:04 UTC
Permalink
Let's see----99% of the time you and your slavonic speaking compatriots
declare that we Greeks are really Hellenized Turks, Albanians and slavs.
However, now you declare that our (meaning Greeks') closest 'genetic'
relations are, as you state "Greeks.... on the other hand, were found
related to Fulani, Yoruba and other cattle tending tribes in Africa".
Galina, you present some of the classic symptoms of possessing Alzheimer's
disease. While there is no good prognosis, please do seek prompt medical
attention for watever care that might be available.
Regards
Eric--
Post by ++
Oddly enough, George, genetic studies have found only two peoples with
any relationship to Macedonian Macedonians - Cretans and so-called
"oriental" Jews. Both make sense when you think about the history.
Greeks, on the other hand, were found related to Fulani, Yoruba and other
cattle tending tribes in Africa. When I saw them dance at a festival on
the Mall in Washington, the very beautiful women were wearing what
appeared to be Greek headdresses - but made out of seashells. They are
not sea people.
George S. Tsapanos
2004-12-02 14:38:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by ++
Oddly enough, George, genetic studies have found only two peoples with
any relationship to Macedonian Macedonians - Cretans and so-called
"oriental" Jews. >
So......what are you trying to tell me Galina?
That the HELLENES-MAKEDONIANS were first in the land of HELLAS, and from there
they went to Crete and the lands of PALESTINE, or it was the other way around?
Do you have any ARCAEOLOGICAL EVIDENCES ATTESTING OF CIVILIZATIONS BEFORE 7350
B.C., the time being, the time of the PROTO-HELLENES in Dispilio?



Regards to all ..................L.
"Vlachs, The Autochthonous
Of the Hellenic Peninsula".
++
2004-12-03 04:37:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by George S. Tsapanos
Post by ++
Oddly enough, George, genetic studies have found only two peoples with
any relationship to Macedonian Macedonians - Cretans and so-called
"oriental" Jews. >
So......what are you trying to tell me Galina?
That the HELLENES-MAKEDONIANS were first in the land of HELLAS,
no
and from there
Post by George S. Tsapanos
they went to Crete and the lands of PALESTINE, or it was the other way around?
Macedonians possibly came from Crete. Then mixed with oriental Jews
before or after hitting the mainland
Post by George S. Tsapanos
Do you have any ARCAEOLOGICAL EVIDENCES ATTESTING OF CIVILIZATIONS BEFORE 7350
B.C., the time being, the time of the PROTO-HELLENES in Dispilio?
Your Dispilio theory is just that - a theory.
Post by George S. Tsapanos
Regards to all ..................L.
"Vlachs, The Autochthonous
Of the Hellenic Peninsula".
George S. Tsapanos
2004-12-03 13:06:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by ++
Macedonians possibly came from Crete. Then mixed with oriental Jews
before or after hitting the mainland>
You must be talking of your SKOPIANS.
The TRUE Makedonians were living already in Dispilio by 5350 B.C. loooooooooong
before any Cretan, Jew, or Orientals arrived in there.



Regards to all ..................L.
"Vlachs, The Autochthonous
Of the Hellenic Peninsula".
Yannis the Macedonian
2004-12-02 15:16:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by ++
Oddly enough, George, genetic studies have found only two peoples with
any relationship to Macedonian Macedonians - Cretans and so-called
"oriental" Jews. Both make sense when you think about the history.
Greeks, on the other hand, were found related to Fulani, Yoruba and
other cattle tending tribes in Africa. When I saw them dance at a
festival on the Mall in Washington, the very beautiful women were
wearing what appeared to be Greek headdresses - but made out of
seashells. They are not sea people.
Blood has nothing to do with ethnicity, Galinitsa, dear pathetic
SlavoSkopian propagandist.
Macedonians were always Greeks.
Yannis
Macedonia, Greece
++
2004-12-01 16:10:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Anastassios Retzios
Post by ++
Post by Anastassios Retzios
Post by ++
Post by Anastassios Retzios <>
Has anybody heard of anything more ridiculous than this??? I mean,
this is stuff of high comedy!!!
If you think so, then why? And why not copy to Odi Belcevski, a very
earnest man?
Listen, if you really believe that there is something "earnest" in
this posting, discussing this with you would be a dreadful waste of my
time. When you have somebody who claims that the term "Hades" (which
occurs in very early Greek) came from the slavonic "Ghades" then this
is staff of high comedy. You cannot be serious and this is absolutely
stupid!
Macedonian is an indo-european language. No reason why both Macedonian
and Greek couldn't have shared root words
I hardly doubt that Hades is an Indoeuropean root word (most of the
elements of ancient Greek religion related to earth-based deities and
the mysteries, such as Demeter, Persephone, Hades, etc were pre-Greek,
part of the religion of the population that the Greeks found in the
area when they arrived there at about 2000 BC). Indoeuropean gods
(including Slavic gods) were gods of the sky, thunder and clouds. In
addition, why is it important to devise a whole new religion for the
Slavs when we know a lot about their religion from classical
historians??
To add gauffeau to loud laughter, your "self-taught" linguist -but
earnest man, nevertheless- proclaims that the word Ghades is unique to
Slavic languages. Possibly, but Hades is not derived from it. The
word was in ordinary use in Greece thousands of years prior to any
Slav even crossing the Danube!!!
You are confusing two periods.
Post by Anastassios Retzios
ADR
Anastassios Retzios
2004-12-02 03:22:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by ++
Post by Anastassios Retzios
Post by ++
Post by Anastassios Retzios
Post by ++
Post by Anastassios Retzios <>
Has anybody heard of anything more ridiculous than this??? I mean,
this is stuff of high comedy!!!
If you think so, then why? And why not copy to Odi Belcevski, a very
earnest man?
Listen, if you really believe that there is something "earnest" in
this posting, discussing this with you would be a dreadful waste of my
time. When you have somebody who claims that the term "Hades" (which
occurs in very early Greek) came from the slavonic "Ghades" then this
is staff of high comedy. You cannot be serious and this is absolutely
stupid!
Macedonian is an indo-european language. No reason why both Macedonian
and Greek couldn't have shared root words
I hardly doubt that Hades is an Indoeuropean root word (most of the
elements of ancient Greek religion related to earth-based deities and
the mysteries, such as Demeter, Persephone, Hades, etc were pre-Greek,
part of the religion of the population that the Greeks found in the
area when they arrived there at about 2000 BC). Indoeuropean gods
(including Slavic gods) were gods of the sky, thunder and clouds. In
addition, why is it important to devise a whole new religion for the
Slavs when we know a lot about their religion from classical
historians??
To add gauffeau to loud laughter, your "self-taught" linguist -but
earnest man, nevertheless- proclaims that the word Ghades is unique to
Slavic languages. Possibly, but Hades is not derived from it. The
word was in ordinary use in Greece thousands of years prior to any
Slav even crossing the Danube!!!
You are confusing two periods.
I am not confusing anything. You are in utter confusion, especially
if you believe these fairy tales.

ADR
Pres George W. Bush
2004-12-02 01:42:02 UTC
Permalink
At the end of the 19th century, there were about 150,000 Vlachs in the
southern Balkans,19 and about half the Greek population of Thessaloniki in
fact consisted of Vlachs.20 After 1912-13 about 100,000 (2/3 of them) became
Greek citizens.21 Since then, they have been much reduced due to emigration
and assimilation. The 1951 census, the last time that minorities were
counted in Greece, recorded 39,385 Vlachs. Around 2003, there may be 20,000
people in Greece who consider themselves Vlach.22

--
Regards,


President George W. Bush
The White House
Washington, DC
United States of America
June R Harton
2004-12-01 05:35:29 UTC
Permalink
"++" <***@erols.com> wrote in message news:OvCdnTxw7PI9SzHcRVn-***@rcn.net...

Schneider, perhaps you should recall that the fyromians are nothing
but Bulgars. You see, or perhaps you can't, your posts are riddled
with worm holes.


For those that didn't know....

One only has to look here to see that the Fyrom Slavic majority
are simply West Bulgarians and have no connection to 'Macedonia' anything:

In a letter to Prof. Marin Drinov of May 25, 1888 Kuzman Shapkarev writes:
"But even stranger is the name Macedonians, which was imposed on us only 10
to 15 years ago by outsiders, and not as something by our own
intellectuals... Yet the people in Macedonia know nothing of that ancient
name, reintroduced today with a cunning aim on the one hand and a stupid one
on the other. They know the older word: "Bugari", although mispronounced:
they have even adopted it as peculiarly theirs, inapplicable to other
Bulgarians. You can find more about this in the introduction to the booklets
I am sending you. They call their own Macedono-Bulgarian dialect the
"Bugarski language", while the rest of the Bulgarian dialects they refer to
as the "Shopski language". (Makedonski pregled, IX, 2, 1934, p. 55; the
original letter is kept in the Marin Drinov Museum in Sofia, and it is
available for examination and study)
Here is the text in the original:

"No pochudno e imeto Makedonci, koeto naskoro, edvay predi 10-15 godini, ni
natrapiha i to otvqn, a ne kakto nyakoi mislyat ot samata nasha
inteligenciya... Narodqt obache v Makedoniya ne znae nishto za tova
arhaichesko, a dnes, s lukava cel ot edna strana, s glupeshka ot druga,
podnoveno prozvishte; toy si znae postaroto: Bugari, makar i nepravilno
proiznasyano, daje osvoyava si go kato sobstveno i preimushtestveno svoe,
nejeli za drugite Bqlgari. Za tova shte vidite i v predgovora na izpratenite
mi knijici. Toy naricha Bugarski ezik svoeto Makaedono-bqlgarsko narechie,
kogato drugite bqlgarski narechiya naricha Shopski."


And here:


Reference source for Gotse Delchev's numerous utterings of 'We are
Bulgarians'......

http://www.ucc.ie/staff/jprodr/macedonia/macmodnat2.html

Even Gotse Delchev, the famous Macedonian revolutionary leader, whose nom de
guerre was Ahil (Achilles), refers to "the Slavs of Macedonia as
'Bulgarians' in an offhanded manner without seeming to indicate that such a
designation was a point of contention" (Perry 1988:23).
In his correspondence Gotse Delchev often states clearly and simply, "We are
Bulgarians" (MacDermott 1978:192,273).


And here:


For fair use only.

http://members.tripod.com/~dimobetchev/documents/ilinden.htm

" Considering the critical and terrible situation that the Bulgarian
population of the Bitola Vilayet found itself in and following the ravages
and cruelties done by the Turkish troops and irregulars, ... considering
the fact that everything Bulgarian runs the risk of perishing and
disappearing without a trace because of violence, hunger, and the upcoming
misery, the Head Quarters finds it to be its obligation to draw the
attention of the respected Bulgarian government to the pernicious
consequences vis-a-vis the Bulgarian nation, in case the latter does not
fulfill its duty towards its brethren of race here in an imposing fashion
which is necessary by virtue of the present ordeal for the common Bulgarian
Fatherland...

...Being in command of our people's movement, we appeal to you on behalf of
the enslaved Bulgarian to help him in the most effective way - by waging
war.We believe that the response of the people in free Bulgaria will be the
same.

... No bulgarian school is opened, neither will it be opened... Nobody
thinks of education when he is outlawed by the state because he bears the
name Bulgar...


Waiting for your patriotic intervention, we are pleased to inform you that
we have in our disposition the armed forces we have spared by now.

The Head Quarters of the Ilinden Uprising"

Damian GRUEV, Boris SARAFOV, Atanas LOZANTCHEV

This memorandum was handed to Dr.Kozhuharov, the Bulgarian consul in Bitola,

and transmitted by him to the government in Sofia with report N441 from
September 17th, 1903. "

And here:


http://www.bulgaria.com/VMRO/document.htm

http://www.bulgaria.com/VMRO/documen1.htm

http://www.bulgaria.com/VMRO/documen2.htm

http://www.bulgaria.com/VMRO/documen3.htm

http://www.bulgaria.com/VMRO/drzhava.htm

http://www.bulgaria.com/VMRO/exarchy.htm

http://w3.tyenet.com/kozlich/mapovska4a.htm

And finally here

http://www.bulgaria.com/VMRO/bitola06.htm

http://www.historymuseum.org/items.php3?nid=199&name=ochrid



from: Spirit of Truth

(using June's e-mail to communicate to you)!
Yannis the Macedonian
2004-12-01 16:40:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by ++
Macedonian is an indo-european language. No reason why both Macedonian
and Greek couldn't have shared root words
All of them Galinitsa. Because Macedonians were always Greeks.
Yannis
Macedonia, Greece
George S. Tsapanos
2004-11-28 15:20:09 UTC
Permalink
Classical Mythology explained with the use of Macedonian vocabulary>
You have one more reason now to believe that the Makedonians indeed are the
Hellenes.
"Classical Mythology" was theirs.




Regards to all ..................L.
"Vlachs, The Autochthonous
Of the Hellenic Peninsula".
June R Harton
2004-11-30 06:54:52 UTC
Permalink
"++" <***@erols.com> wrote in message news:8u2dnQlQKKB4xDTcRVn-***@rcn.net...

My goodness, Schneider, someone writings as stupid as yours!



For those that didn't know....

One only has to look here to see that the Fyrom Slavic majority, like that
last poster, are simply West Bulgarians and have no connection to
'Macedonia' anything:

In a letter to Prof. Marin Drinov of May 25, 1888 Kuzman Shapkarev writes:
"But even stranger is the name Macedonians, which was imposed on us only 10
to 15 years ago by outsiders, and not as something by our own
intellectuals... Yet the people in Macedonia know nothing of that ancient
name, reintroduced today with a cunning aim on the one hand and a stupid one
on the other. They know the older word: "Bugari", although mispronounced:
they have even adopted it as peculiarly theirs, inapplicable to other
Bulgarians. You can find more about this in the introduction to the booklets
I am sending you. They call their own Macedono-Bulgarian dialect the
"Bugarski language", while the rest of the Bulgarian dialects they refer to
as the "Shopski language". (Makedonski pregled, IX, 2, 1934, p. 55; the
original letter is kept in the Marin Drinov Museum in Sofia, and it is
available for examination and study)
Here is the text in the original:

"No pochudno e imeto Makedonci, koeto naskoro, edvay predi 10-15 godini, ni
natrapiha i to otvqn, a ne kakto nyakoi mislyat ot samata nasha
inteligenciya... Narodqt obache v Makedoniya ne znae nishto za tova
arhaichesko, a dnes, s lukava cel ot edna strana, s glupeshka ot druga,
podnoveno prozvishte; toy si znae postaroto: Bugari, makar i nepravilno
proiznasyano, daje osvoyava si go kato sobstveno i preimushtestveno svoe,
nejeli za drugite Bqlgari. Za tova shte vidite i v predgovora na izpratenite
mi knijici. Toy naricha Bugarski ezik svoeto Makaedono-bqlgarsko narechie,
kogato drugite bqlgarski narechiya naricha Shopski."


And here:


Reference source for Gotse Delchev's numerous utterings of 'We are
Bulgarians'......

http://www.ucc.ie/staff/jprodr/macedonia/macmodnat2.html

Even Gotse Delchev, the famous Macedonian revolutionary leader, whose nom de
guerre was Ahil (Achilles), refers to "the Slavs of Macedonia as
'Bulgarians' in an offhanded manner without seeming to indicate that such a
designation was a point of contention" (Perry 1988:23).
In his correspondence Gotse Delchev often states clearly and simply, "We are
Bulgarians" (MacDermott 1978:192,273).


And here:


For fair use only.

http://members.tripod.com/~dimobetchev/documents/ilinden.htm

" Considering the critical and terrible situation that the Bulgarian
population of the Bitola Vilayet found itself in and following the ravages
and cruelties done by the Turkish troops and irregulars, ... considering
the fact that everything Bulgarian runs the risk of perishing and
disappearing without a trace because of violence, hunger, and the upcoming
misery, the Head Quarters finds it to be its obligation to draw the
attention of the respected Bulgarian government to the pernicious
consequences vis-a-vis the Bulgarian nation, in case the latter does not
fulfill its duty towards its brethren of race here in an imposing fashion
which is necessary by virtue of the present ordeal for the common Bulgarian
Fatherland...

...Being in command of our people's movement, we appeal to you on behalf of
the enslaved Bulgarian to help him in the most effective way - by waging
war.We believe that the response of the people in free Bulgaria will be the
same.

... No bulgarian school is opened, neither will it be opened... Nobody
thinks of education when he is outlawed by the state because he bears the
name Bulgar...


Waiting for your patriotic intervention, we are pleased to inform you that
we have in our disposition the armed forces we have spared by now.

The Head Quarters of the Ilinden Uprising"

Damian GRUEV, Boris SARAFOV, Atanas LOZANTCHEV

This memorandum was handed to Dr.Kozhuharov, the Bulgarian consul in Bitola,

and transmitted by him to the government in Sofia with report N441 from
September 17th, 1903. "

And here:


http://www.bulgaria.com/VMRO/document.htm

http://www.bulgaria.com/VMRO/documen1.htm

http://www.bulgaria.com/VMRO/documen2.htm

http://www.bulgaria.com/VMRO/documen3.htm

http://www.bulgaria.com/VMRO/drzhava.htm

http://www.bulgaria.com/VMRO/exarchy.htm

http://w3.tyenet.com/kozlich/mapovska4a.htm

And finally here

http://www.bulgaria.com/VMRO/bitola06.htm

http://www.historymuseum.org/items.php3?nid=199&name=ochrid



from: Spirit of Truth

(using June's e-mail to communicate to you)!
rikopal
2004-11-30 17:00:17 UTC
Permalink
Yeah right ....... the "barbarians" from whom supposed the Greeks took their
Gods , are the Slavs who came
to the region 3000 years after the Greeks????

HAHAHAHAHAHA.......
Post by ++
Classical Mythology explained with the use of Macedonian vocabulary
A series of studies in European mythology
by Odisej Belchevsky
http://www.maknews.com/html/articles/belchevsky/belchevsky_practical_mythology1.html
Part 1 - Is there a practical meaning to mythology?
The information contained in this article is not of mythical or imagined
content but is very real, which the reader should find exciting and
interesting.
In this article I will take the reader through a fresh new look at
Classical Mythology and bring out the true meaning of the identities of
Demeter, Saturn, Pluto/Hades and Zemele.
How is it that for the last 200 years European scholars have been able to
attribute mathematics, physics, astronomy, government, military
strategies, natural principles and even the understanding of human
behavior to the ancient people of southern Europe and the Mediterranean
yet when it comes to interpreting mythological figures they could only
manage to provide imaginary, unrealistic, impractical, hard to understand
and confusing explanations?
Is it possible that modern scholars and scholars of the "Romantic Era" in
particular, did not have a clear understanding of the true meaning of the
names of deities in relation to the deities' roles and functions in
nature?
I will begin my interpretation by providing the reader with a foundation
for understanding the process by which the ancient Europeans created what
we today call Classical Mythology. I will then show how the ancient
Europeans used practical methods for naming their deities and each name
such as Demeter, Pluto, Hades, Zemele, etc. had a special meaning for them
which, when interpreted properly, makes sense even today.
To conduct our interpretations properly we must seek the oldest name of
each deity and have a good knowledge of the deity's attributes and
characteristics. It is also essential that we have a good knowledge of
the old Macedonian languages, Koine and Slavonic.
It is particularly important to know the oldest name of the gods and
goddesses because many deities have been borrowed by various cultures and
over time their names have been changed.
Over the years I have studied many details of these deities both from
linguistic and historical sources and, although many books have been
written on this subject, none can provide a simple and logical
explanation. Most often the average person searching for meaning is left
with a confusing, complicated, long, stretched out and generally difficult
explanation.
By applying my knowledge of the Macedonian language, some of its older
dialects and old Slavonic I have been able to find simpler and practical
meanings for the names of the deities which not only identify the deities
with nature but also put them in harmony with their characteristics and
attributes.
In this article I would like to offer a practical meaning for the four
deities: Demeter, Pluto, Hades and Zemele.
After establishing the meaning of the names of these four we can use the
same method to explain the meaning and role of almost all known classical
deities. We must also keep in mind that some names and their meanings have
evolved over the years.
If we were to study the ancient societies from about 1500 to 500 B.C. we
would find that their world was a world of agriculture. Most people in
this period made their living from farming, so it is reasonable to assume
that their survival depended on their ability to successfully work the
land. More specifically, farmers had to have extensive knowledge of soil
and weather conditions. They had to know the seasons, when to plant and
when to harvest. They also had to know the importance of rain and its
unpredictability. In the old days, as it is today, after planting farmers
had to literally "pray" for the rain to fall. In all practicality, if the
rain did not fall when it was needed, crops would suffer and yield poorly.
The quality of soil was also an important factor in farming. If the soil
was infertile the crop yield would be poor. The ancient farmers had to
know that.
When comparing today's societies with those of 3000 years ago we find that
ancient people did not have the technology or the means to transport food
over great distances so a failed crop meant suffering and starvation. In
ancient times all the necessary work was done manually by humans and
animals (in some regions of the world farming is still done this way).
Today we have technology to till the land, plant seeds and harvest crops.
We have fertilizing to enrich the soil and water delivery systems to water
it. We also have better methods (although sometimes questionable) of
predicting the weather.
Now that we have established that the ancient societies of 3000 years ago
heavily depended on farming the land for their survival, we need to
establish a rationale for their gods. First we need to establish the
origin of these deities.
It was Plato (500-600 BC) that said "most gods and their traditions we
have received from the Barbarians". A few hundred years later Herodotus
confirms Plato's statement.
.
If these Barbarians, who according to Homer, were "as numerous as the
leaves in the forest" had the capacity to create these gods and pass them
on to the ancient Europeans, is it not possible that their other
characteristics have also descended and remain with us today?
It is important to note here that the original meaning of the word
barbarian was "misunderstood". Today we know that barbarian does not mean
ignorant but rather a non-speaker of the languages of the ancient city
states.
Many authors, I believe, have tried to interpret the rationale behind the
ancient deities but did not go deep enough. In my opinion, their scope was
too narrow and they could not find a rational and logical explanation. One
of those authors was Edith Hamilton, a great scholar and world-renowned
classicist who wrote a book about Greek and Norse Mythology. In her book,
published in 1940, she talks about mythological fairy tales and stories of
the imagination, pure fiction with little meaning or practicality that
would connect the deities to every day life. Others too have hinged on the
imagination of the ancients as the source for the creation of mythology.
I do have to admit that over time mythological stories most probably have
been embellished by the storytellers and as a result have somewhat
changed. But still we must not underestimate the ability of the ancient
Europeans to apply reason and logic. We also have to maintain the notion
that at the time of the "mythological creation", which most likely was
over a long period of time, all the gods were created by necessity and
were an integral part of peoples' lives. I have been carrying this notion
for many years and as a result have searched for more rational and
practical meanings in mythology.
Influenced by numerous literary sources connecting classical mythology to
the ancient Greeks and Romans, most writers over the last hundred years or
so have failed to widen their search and consider one of the largest
linguistic groups, the Slavonic languages. Myself, I have discovered that
the Slavonic languages offer an immense source of knowledge in many fields
including mythology.
For example, consider the following excerpt;
..The daughter of Doimater (Demeter), Prosorpina - (Persephone) is
"snatched" by Hades the god of the underworld and is taken underneath the
earth for four months of the year. In the beginning, Demeter is furious as
she frantically looks for her daughter. Her absence causes the earth to
freeze and become barren of all fruits and gifts to the mortals. After
some time Demeter accepts Persephone's fate and allows her to become Hades'
bride and spend the winters beneath the surface of the earth...
In the spring, when Hades changes to Pluto (his brother), Persephone comes
back to the surface bringing with her Pluto's wealth of the agriculture
and all Demeter's gifts of nature back to the mortals ...
Looking at the excerpt from a farmer's point of view we find that the
changing of the seasons is perpetual and universal. As daylight increases
and the sun warms the earth, the earth comes back to life. The soil is
plowed, seeded and bears the fruits that sustain life. This is an annual
transformation that goes beyond the control of mere mortals (humans). As
farmers, the ancient people paid careful attention to the seasons.
It is important at this point to note that the ancient creators of the
gods modeled their deities after their own images and their relationships
to one another. For example there were mother and father gods, children
and sibling gods. These gods were part of their lives and daily existence.
It is also important to note that the various "myths" come to us from the
well known "Homeric Hymns".
For many thousands of years the ancient Europeans observed natural
phenomena around them, phenomena such as the movement of the sun,
lightning and thunder descending from the sky, the birth of new life,
death, the falling of rain, the perpetual changing of day and night, the
changing of the moon, the stars, the changing of the seasons, the enormous
power of the uncontrollable seas, the phenomenon of fire, the fruitfulness
of mother earth and many more.
People could not explain or control these powerful natural phenomena but
accepted them as forces of nature. In their minds these powerful forces
were responsible for the existence of all life on earth so naturally the
early Europeans greatly respected, feared, honoured and accepted them as
gods.
Today we are not much different. Even though our religions have greatly
evolved, we still attribute things we don't understand or wish for to our
God. All religions basically teach us to be good, to love and respect one
another, to be generous and to be honest and humble.
Unlike our ancestors, today we understand most of the natural phenomena
like how clouds and rain are formed, what causes the changing of the
seasons, etc. and no longer have the need to attribute them to the gods.
Also, in spite of what modern scholars tell us;
The Ancient Europeans did not imagine or create their gods purely for
fictional purposes but rather they modeled them after the powerful
"Natural Phenomena" which they observed over long periods of time. The
gods were created from the basic need to explain the natural forces that
controlled their lives.
This becomes apparent when we use the Macedonian language to explain the
role of the gods from the meaning of their names.
Most of the original names and characteristics of these deities clearly
coincide with basic fundamental words found in the modern Macedonian and
Slavonic languages. These words are part of language concepts that have
created very large families of words with very deep etymological root
connections pointing to a long and continual development. The Slavonic
languages provide the most logical explanation and are unparalleled
compared to other European and non-European languages. Evidence of this is
very strong and is extremely hard to ignore.
The following table provides examples of the relationship between the
meaning of the name of the deities and their role in nature.
Deity Name Associated with Macedonian English
Greek
Greek or Roman (attributes) or Slavonic
Semele TheTraco- Macedonian Zemja ,Zemje
Earth Homa
Earth Goddess
Saturn Agricultural God Sadi
Planting Fiton
Sadir-Sadene Sadenje
Doimater
(Demeter)Doi Doi Nourishing, feeding Theripticos
Dos ,Doi,(Dos,Doi) Dos-doi Rain
Pluto Riches of agriculture Plodo, Plod
Fruitful Karpoforos
Later- Wealth (Plot)
Hades Underworld/ snake Ghades
Snake Ofis
The names of these Deities are interconnected in a most amazing functional
conception. In fact they exist together in harmony in the Macedonian
language today just as they always existed in nature. They are
inseparable. If we separate them their meaning will be lost.
Zemele -Zemle - Semelhs
Zemele is an ancient root word that exists only in the Slavonic languages.
The following are Macedonian etymological words associated with the root
word Zemele.
Zemja, Zemla the Earth
Zemjodelie agriculture
Zemjodelec crop farmer
Zemjak fellow countryman
Zemski earthly
Zemjotres earthquake
Prizemje partly underground
Temeli ( Zemeli) foundations (the foundations are always dug into
the Earth)
Temni to darken
Temno dark (it darkens as one descends deep into
earth)
Temnica darkness
Podzemle underground
Nadzemle aboveground
Zemjani inhabitants of the earth
Zemun, Zemunik place names originally built with earth/ soil around
them
Also, the above have close family ties with the following
Zemle, Semle, Sem(l)e, Seme seed that is planted in the earth
Semeto se see the seed is planted in the
earth
By losing the letter 'm' above, we obtain;
Zemele, Semele, Seele, sele inhabiting the earth "living on the
Earth"
Sele, na sele to inhabit, dwell
Selo village (pre Slav-
house, habitat)
sela
nasele
and so on.
The word Zemele also has a number of "sister words" such as Zmija and zmej
a snake or snake like monster, cold-blooded creatures that live below
ground or in the underworld.
Now let's review the characteristics and basic concepts associated with
the earth.
1. It is able to bear fruit aFruitfulness
2. Richness of the Soil a Plod a Pluto
Only a fruitful earth will bear "agricultural riches" associated with the
god Pluto.
The word Pluto is closely related to the Macedonian word Plod or Plodo. In
older versions of the Slavonic languages the letters and sounds of o and u
were interchangeable. This is significant because if we replace the
current letter 'o' with 'u', we obtain Pludo. By the way, it is important
to mention here that Pluto's original name, or more precisely, one of
Pluto's older names is "Ploto".
The word Plodo is part of a very large family of words many of which are
functionally related in a language concept.
The earth contains all the ingredients and ability to nourish life which
is planted into it. This is reflected and expressed in the words "Plodna
Zemja" or "fruitful earth" .This only happens when the earth's two
attributes "fruitfulness and richness of soil" come together.
We know that everything that is alive bears fruit. Females (woman, Zhena)
must be "fruitful" as well as be impregnated with a seed at the proper
time or lunar cycle, in order to bear offspring and perpetuate life.
The seeds of every plant, when planted at the proper time (the spring),
will be nourished by the falling rain or Dos / Dosdoi, as we call it in
Macedonian. Coincidentally, the original name of Demeter was Doi (Doi) and
Dos (Dos).
Also from the Homeric poems we know that Doine (Doine - qoine) means
"feeding, nourishing".
Again according to Homer, when the goddess Demeter came to earth to search
for her daughter she used the name Doi.
There is also one important fact that I would like to mention at his
point. According to one Macedonian tradition, which by the way is still
practiced to this day in remote parts of Macedonia, there is a chant
attributed to Doi that goes something like this;
".. Doi -dole -Doidule-
Dozdo da zavrne.
Da na doi zemlata."
These are actual words chanted to the rain goddess asking her to make it
rain (Dos and Dozd) so that the earth can be nourished and the crops will
grow and bear fruit.
It is important at this point to mention that Persephone, Demeter's
daughter was also known by an older name as "Preseffeta" which in
Macedonian means "to bloom". As we know all living plants bloom in the
spring when Persephone is released by Hades and returns to the surface.
And now let's look at Hades, the god of the underworld and his
relationship to the natural world.
Ghades - Hades
We all know that during the winter months in the world where the climate
is moderate the earth freezes and loses its ability to bear fruit. In
other words, Doimater or Demeter "cuts off the fruitfulness, richness and
gift of the soil" as Pluto (Plodo), the richness of the soil escapes into
the underworld and becomes his brother Hades (Ghades).
Hades renews himself as he again snatches Demeter's daughter who
symbolizes spring and summer, the warm seasons, and takes her below the
earth for another cycle. Hades' renewal brings the end of the warm season
and the beginning of the cold one. For the farmers of old, Hades was the
"bad attribute" of the earth or the time when the soil lost its Plod or
ability to bear fruit. Hades is also associated with decomposition,
darkness and fear of the unknown.
Again, Ghades is a unique Slavonic word that does not exist in any other
European language. In most Slavonic cultures, the word Ghades is
associated with the snake but in Macedonian it could also mean something
bad, unpleasant, terrible, undesirable, or slimy.
Ghad
Ghadeno
Ghadesh
Se ghadi
To be continued.
The material in this article is the copyright property of Odyssey Belchevsky
Dorian West
2004-12-01 08:48:29 UTC
Permalink
The laughing stock of the laughing stock. Shouldn't this Galina whore be on
her back earning her living? The kids must be starving.
Post by rikopal
Yeah right ....... the "barbarians" from whom supposed the Greeks took
their Gods , are the Slavs who came
to the region 3000 years after the Greeks????
HAHAHAHAHAHA.......
Post by ++
Classical Mythology explained with the use of Macedonian vocabulary
A series of studies in European mythology
by Odisej Belchevsky
http://www.maknews.com/html/articles/belchevsky/belchevsky_practical_mythology1.html
Part 1 - Is there a practical meaning to mythology?
The information contained in this article is not of mythical or imagined
content but is very real, which the reader should find exciting and
interesting.
In this article I will take the reader through a fresh new look at
Classical Mythology and bring out the true meaning of the identities of
Demeter, Saturn, Pluto/Hades and Zemele.
How is it that for the last 200 years European scholars have been able to
attribute mathematics, physics, astronomy, government, military
strategies, natural principles and even the understanding of human
behavior to the ancient people of southern Europe and the Mediterranean
yet when it comes to interpreting mythological figures they could only
manage to provide imaginary, unrealistic, impractical, hard to understand
and confusing explanations?
Is it possible that modern scholars and scholars of the "Romantic Era" in
particular, did not have a clear understanding of the true meaning of the
names of deities in relation to the deities' roles and functions in
nature?
I will begin my interpretation by providing the reader with a foundation
for understanding the process by which the ancient Europeans created what
we today call Classical Mythology. I will then show how the ancient
Europeans used practical methods for naming their deities and each name
such as Demeter, Pluto, Hades, Zemele, etc. had a special meaning for
them which, when interpreted properly, makes sense even today.
To conduct our interpretations properly we must seek the oldest name of
each deity and have a good knowledge of the deity's attributes and
characteristics. It is also essential that we have a good knowledge of
the old Macedonian languages, Koine and Slavonic.
It is particularly important to know the oldest name of the gods and
goddesses because many deities have been borrowed by various cultures and
over time their names have been changed.
Over the years I have studied many details of these deities both from
linguistic and historical sources and, although many books have been
written on this subject, none can provide a simple and logical
explanation. Most often the average person searching for meaning is left
with a confusing, complicated, long, stretched out and generally
difficult explanation.
By applying my knowledge of the Macedonian language, some of its older
dialects and old Slavonic I have been able to find simpler and practical
meanings for the names of the deities which not only identify the deities
with nature but also put them in harmony with their characteristics and
attributes.
In this article I would like to offer a practical meaning for the four
deities: Demeter, Pluto, Hades and Zemele.
After establishing the meaning of the names of these four we can use the
same method to explain the meaning and role of almost all known classical
deities. We must also keep in mind that some names and their meanings
have evolved over the years.
If we were to study the ancient societies from about 1500 to 500 B.C. we
would find that their world was a world of agriculture. Most people in
this period made their living from farming, so it is reasonable to assume
that their survival depended on their ability to successfully work the
land. More specifically, farmers had to have extensive knowledge of soil
and weather conditions. They had to know the seasons, when to plant and
when to harvest. They also had to know the importance of rain and its
unpredictability. In the old days, as it is today, after planting
farmers had to literally "pray" for the rain to fall. In all
practicality, if the rain did not fall when it was needed, crops would
suffer and yield poorly. The quality of soil was also an important factor
in farming. If the soil was infertile the crop yield would be poor. The
ancient farmers had to know that.
When comparing today's societies with those of 3000 years ago we find
that ancient people did not have the technology or the means to transport
food over great distances so a failed crop meant suffering and
starvation. In ancient times all the necessary work was done manually by
humans and animals (in some regions of the world farming is still done
this way). Today we have technology to till the land, plant seeds and
harvest crops. We have fertilizing to enrich the soil and water delivery
systems to water it. We also have better methods (although sometimes
questionable) of predicting the weather.
Now that we have established that the ancient societies of 3000 years ago
heavily depended on farming the land for their survival, we need to
establish a rationale for their gods. First we need to establish the
origin of these deities.
It was Plato (500-600 BC) that said "most gods and their traditions we
have received from the Barbarians". A few hundred years later Herodotus
confirms Plato's statement.
.
If these Barbarians, who according to Homer, were "as numerous as the
leaves in the forest" had the capacity to create these gods and pass them
on to the ancient Europeans, is it not possible that their other
characteristics have also descended and remain with us today?
It is important to note here that the original meaning of the word
barbarian was "misunderstood". Today we know that barbarian does not mean
ignorant but rather a non-speaker of the languages of the ancient city
states.
Many authors, I believe, have tried to interpret the rationale behind the
ancient deities but did not go deep enough. In my opinion, their scope
was too narrow and they could not find a rational and logical
explanation. One of those authors was Edith Hamilton, a great scholar and
world-renowned classicist who wrote a book about Greek and Norse
Mythology. In her book, published in 1940, she talks about mythological
fairy tales and stories of the imagination, pure fiction with little
meaning or practicality that would connect the deities to every day life.
Others too have hinged on the imagination of the ancients as the source
for the creation of mythology.
I do have to admit that over time mythological stories most probably have
been embellished by the storytellers and as a result have somewhat
changed. But still we must not underestimate the ability of the ancient
Europeans to apply reason and logic. We also have to maintain the notion
that at the time of the "mythological creation", which most likely was
over a long period of time, all the gods were created by necessity and
were an integral part of peoples' lives. I have been carrying this notion
for many years and as a result have searched for more rational and
practical meanings in mythology.
Influenced by numerous literary sources connecting classical mythology to
the ancient Greeks and Romans, most writers over the last hundred years
or so have failed to widen their search and consider one of the largest
linguistic groups, the Slavonic languages. Myself, I have discovered that
the Slavonic languages offer an immense source of knowledge in many
fields including mythology.
For example, consider the following excerpt;
..The daughter of Doimater (Demeter), Prosorpina - (Persephone) is
"snatched" by Hades the god of the underworld and is taken underneath the
earth for four months of the year. In the beginning, Demeter is furious
as she frantically looks for her daughter. Her absence causes the earth
to freeze and become barren of all fruits and gifts to the mortals.
After some time Demeter accepts Persephone's fate and allows her to
become Hades' bride and spend the winters beneath the surface of the
earth...
In the spring, when Hades changes to Pluto (his brother), Persephone
comes back to the surface bringing with her Pluto's wealth of the
agriculture and all Demeter's gifts of nature back to the mortals ...
Looking at the excerpt from a farmer's point of view we find that the
changing of the seasons is perpetual and universal. As daylight increases
and the sun warms the earth, the earth comes back to life. The soil is
plowed, seeded and bears the fruits that sustain life. This is an annual
transformation that goes beyond the control of mere mortals (humans). As
farmers, the ancient people paid careful attention to the seasons.
It is important at this point to note that the ancient creators of the
gods modeled their deities after their own images and their relationships
to one another. For example there were mother and father gods, children
and sibling gods. These gods were part of their lives and daily existence.
It is also important to note that the various "myths" come to us from the
well known "Homeric Hymns".
For many thousands of years the ancient Europeans observed natural
phenomena around them, phenomena such as the movement of the sun,
lightning and thunder descending from the sky, the birth of new life,
death, the falling of rain, the perpetual changing of day and night, the
changing of the moon, the stars, the changing of the seasons, the
enormous power of the uncontrollable seas, the phenomenon of fire, the
fruitfulness of mother earth and many more.
People could not explain or control these powerful natural phenomena but
accepted them as forces of nature. In their minds these powerful forces
were responsible for the existence of all life on earth so naturally the
early Europeans greatly respected, feared, honoured and accepted them as
gods.
Today we are not much different. Even though our religions have greatly
evolved, we still attribute things we don't understand or wish for to our
God. All religions basically teach us to be good, to love and respect one
another, to be generous and to be honest and humble.
Unlike our ancestors, today we understand most of the natural phenomena
like how clouds and rain are formed, what causes the changing of the
seasons, etc. and no longer have the need to attribute them to the gods.
Also, in spite of what modern scholars tell us;
The Ancient Europeans did not imagine or create their gods purely for
fictional purposes but rather they modeled them after the powerful
"Natural Phenomena" which they observed over long periods of time. The
gods were created from the basic need to explain the natural forces that
controlled their lives.
This becomes apparent when we use the Macedonian language to explain the
role of the gods from the meaning of their names.
Most of the original names and characteristics of these deities clearly
coincide with basic fundamental words found in the modern Macedonian and
Slavonic languages. These words are part of language concepts that have
created very large families of words with very deep etymological root
connections pointing to a long and continual development. The Slavonic
languages provide the most logical explanation and are unparalleled
compared to other European and non-European languages. Evidence of this
is very strong and is extremely hard to ignore.
The following table provides examples of the relationship between the
meaning of the name of the deities and their role in nature.
Deity Name Associated with Macedonian English
Greek
Greek or Roman (attributes) or Slavonic
Semele TheTraco- Macedonian Zemja ,Zemje Earth
Homa
Earth Goddess
Saturn Agricultural God Sadi Planting
Fiton
Sadir-Sadene Sadenje
Doimater
(Demeter)Doi Doi Nourishing, feeding Theripticos
Dos ,Doi,(Dos,Doi) Dos-doi Rain
Pluto Riches of agriculture Plodo, Plod
Fruitful Karpoforos
Later- Wealth (Plot)
Hades Underworld/ snake Ghades Snake
Ofis
The names of these Deities are interconnected in a most amazing
functional conception. In fact they exist together in harmony in the
Macedonian language today just as they always existed in nature. They are
inseparable. If we separate them their meaning will be lost.
Zemele -Zemle - Semelhs
Zemele is an ancient root word that exists only in the Slavonic languages.
The following are Macedonian etymological words associated with the root
word Zemele.
Zemja, Zemla the Earth
Zemjodelie agriculture
Zemjodelec crop farmer
Zemjak fellow countryman
Zemski earthly
Zemjotres earthquake
Prizemje partly underground
Temeli ( Zemeli) foundations (the foundations are always dug into
the Earth)
Temni to darken
Temno dark (it darkens as one descends deep into
earth)
Temnica darkness
Podzemle underground
Nadzemle aboveground
Zemjani inhabitants of the earth
Zemun, Zemunik place names originally built with earth/ soil around
them
Also, the above have close family ties with the following
Zemle, Semle, Sem(l)e, Seme seed that is planted in the earth
Semeto se see the seed is planted in
the earth
By losing the letter 'm' above, we obtain;
Zemele, Semele, Seele, sele inhabiting the earth "living on
the Earth"
Sele, na sele to inhabit, dwell
Selo village (pre Slav-
house, habitat)
sela
nasele
and so on.
The word Zemele also has a number of "sister words" such as Zmija and
zmej a snake or snake like monster, cold-blooded creatures that live
below ground or in the underworld.
Now let's review the characteristics and basic concepts associated with
the earth.
1. It is able to bear fruit aFruitfulness
2. Richness of the Soil a Plod a Pluto
Only a fruitful earth will bear "agricultural riches" associated with the
god Pluto.
The word Pluto is closely related to the Macedonian word Plod or Plodo.
In older versions of the Slavonic languages the letters and sounds of o
and u were interchangeable. This is significant because if we replace the
current letter 'o' with 'u', we obtain Pludo. By the way, it is important
to mention here that Pluto's original name, or more precisely, one of
Pluto's older names is "Ploto".
The word Plodo is part of a very large family of words many of which are
functionally related in a language concept.
The earth contains all the ingredients and ability to nourish life which
is planted into it. This is reflected and expressed in the words "Plodna
Zemja" or "fruitful earth" .This only happens when the earth's two
attributes "fruitfulness and richness of soil" come together.
We know that everything that is alive bears fruit. Females (woman,
Zhena) must be "fruitful" as well as be impregnated with a seed at the
proper time or lunar cycle, in order to bear offspring and perpetuate life.
The seeds of every plant, when planted at the proper time (the spring),
will be nourished by the falling rain or Dos / Dosdoi, as we call it in
Macedonian. Coincidentally, the original name of Demeter was Doi (Doi)
and Dos (Dos).
Also from the Homeric poems we know that Doine (Doine - qoine) means
"feeding, nourishing".
Again according to Homer, when the goddess Demeter came to earth to
search for her daughter she used the name Doi.
There is also one important fact that I would like to mention at his
point. According to one Macedonian tradition, which by the way is still
practiced to this day in remote parts of Macedonia, there is a chant
attributed to Doi that goes something like this;
".. Doi -dole -Doidule-
Dozdo da zavrne.
Da na doi zemlata."
These are actual words chanted to the rain goddess asking her to make it
rain (Dos and Dozd) so that the earth can be nourished and the crops will
grow and bear fruit.
It is important at this point to mention that Persephone, Demeter's
daughter was also known by an older name as "Preseffeta" which in
Macedonian means "to bloom". As we know all living plants bloom in the
spring when Persephone is released by Hades and returns to the surface.
And now let's look at Hades, the god of the underworld and his
relationship to the natural world.
Ghades - Hades
We all know that during the winter months in the world where the climate
is moderate the earth freezes and loses its ability to bear fruit. In
other words, Doimater or Demeter "cuts off the fruitfulness, richness and
gift of the soil" as Pluto (Plodo), the richness of the soil escapes into
the underworld and becomes his brother Hades (Ghades).
Hades renews himself as he again snatches Demeter's daughter who
symbolizes spring and summer, the warm seasons, and takes her below the
earth for another cycle. Hades' renewal brings the end of the warm season
and the beginning of the cold one. For the farmers of old, Hades was the
"bad attribute" of the earth or the time when the soil lost its Plod or
ability to bear fruit. Hades is also associated with decomposition,
darkness and fear of the unknown.
Again, Ghades is a unique Slavonic word that does not exist in any other
European language. In most Slavonic cultures, the word Ghades is
associated with the snake but in Macedonian it could also mean something
bad, unpleasant, terrible, undesirable, or slimy.
Ghad
Ghadeno
Ghadesh
Se ghadi
To be continued.
The material in this article is the copyright property of Odyssey Belchevsky
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